could be another Ferguson Missouri ?

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Sativa Quemador said:
but a shot in the leg would teach em.
and if you cant shoot a non-threatening slow moving person 15 feet away maybe try air soft and spray and pray
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Lol.. Did you read anything I posted over there? I'll try to point out A FEW ways your tactical assessment is wrong:

1) Hitting a big relatively stationary target is a lot easier than tracking a smaller-sized moving target
2) Human torso is in line of a natural sight picture. The cop would have to move the gun quite a bit to aim for the leg, which takes time
3) If the attacker is only 15' away, he can cover a lot of distance in that time - enough to endanger the cop
4) When a person is in a potentially life-threatening situation, their aim goes to ****. Training ensures it's less ******, but it's still ****
5) Unlike what you see in the movies, the attacker frequently doesn't drop after getting hit by a single bullet. I know a cop who pumped 9rds of 9mm center-mass into an armed home invasion suspect - then they waited for the ambulance to come (2hrs)... The suspect died on the way to the hospital (this occurred in sub-Saharan Africa)
 
Journalism is business, and most journos are professional trolls looking to incite a response... they take freedoms in their reporting for this reason.
 
Sativa Quemador said:
and if you cant shoot a non-threatening slow moving person 15 feet away maybe try air soft and spray and pray
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FiReSTaRT said:
Lol.. Did you read anything I posted over there? I'll try to point out A FEW ways your tactical assessment is wrong:

1) Hitting a big relatively stationary target is a lot easier than tracking a smaller-sized moving target
2) Human torso is in line of a natural sight picture. The cop would have to move the gun quite a bit to aim for the leg, which takes time
3) If the attacker is only 15' away, he can cover a lot of distance in that time - enough to endanger the cop
4) When a person is in a potentially life-threatening situation, their aim goes to ****. Training ensures it's less ******, but it's still ****
5) Unlike what you see in the movies, the attacker frequently doesn't drop after getting hit by a single bullet. I know a cop who pumped 9rds of 9mm center-mass into an armed home invasion suspect - then they waited for the ambulance to come (2hrs)... The suspect died on the way to the hospital (this occurred in sub-Saharan Africa)
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how can my assessment be wrong ? im the one assessing my own Life's danger.

the blatant point you are missing here is that the cop in the specific story we are talking about in this specific instance was not in any danger.
he blasted and killed a person that was no threat.

now what i was kinda trying to say with a bit of silly humour, is that nailing people in the leg is a good lesson to learn. instead of killing them.

now, if the cop is in danger... blast away.

the lesson you need to learn, is that these people arent " attackers " they are citizens, and not all of them are evil.
the police should learn this as well. what happened to the good ol days when cops used to skip paperwork and works things out a better way.
 
Sativa Quemador said:
how can my assessment be wrong ? im the one assessing my own Life's danger.

the blatant point you are missing here is that the cop in the specific story we are talking about in this specific instance was not in any danger.
he blasted and killed a person that was no threat.
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It's a perceived threat. The cop doesn't have a time-machine.
 
Sativa Quemador said:
how can my assessment be wrong ? im the one assessing my own Life's danger.

the blatant point you are missing here is that the cop in the specific story we are talking about in this specific instance was not in any danger.
he blasted and killed a person that was no threat.

now what i was kinda trying to say with a bit of silly humour, is that nailing people in the leg is a good lesson to learn. instead of killing them.

now, if the cop is in danger... blast away.

the lesson you need to learn, is that these people arent " attackers " they are citizens, and not all of them are evil.
the police should learn this as well. what happened to the good ol days when cops used to skip paperwork and works things out a better way.
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You keep going on and on about leg shots... And I keep telling you that leg-shots are not an option even for someone who's WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY better trained than your typical cop. What makes you think they'd be an option for somebody who (relatively speaking) couldn't hit the broad side of the barn under the best of circumstances, not to mention when put in a stressful situation?

Now, we're not talking about what a threat is from the comfort of your armchair, weeks after the event. We are talking about stressful situations as they develop, like a bigger thug who already rocked you a couple of times rushing at you or a person with what looks to be a perfectly functional gun.

Regardless of the situation, if an officer feels that he needs to use his gun, there are no trick shots, that would be likely to eventually kill the subject anyway.. You aim for the big, easy target. ALWAYS.
 
FiReSTaRT said:
You keep going on and on about leg shots... And I keep telling you that leg-shots are not an option even for someone who's WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY better trained than your typical cop. What makes you think they'd be an option for somebody who (relatively speaking) couldn't hit the broad side of the barn under the best of circumstances, not to mention when put in a stressful situation?

Now, we're not talking about what a threat is from the comfort of your armchair, weeks after the event. We are talking about stressful situations as they develop, like a bigger thug who already rocked you a couple of times rushing at you or a person with what looks to be a perfectly functional gun.

Regardless of the situation, if an officer feels that he needs to use his gun, there are no trick shots, that would be likely to eventually kill the subject anyway.. You aim for the big, easy target. ALWAYS.
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It comes back around to cops shouldn't be intentionally engaging armed suspects with their handguns. When you know you are going into a hostile situation, the shotgun (mounted between the seats) should be coming with you. Handguns should be a last resort when the situation changes and you are away from your car. As firestart has said, police are entirely ill-equipped to deal with these situations, there is not enough time/money spent/available for the range. Even the US military does not approach training levels required for proficiency yet alone mastery (for all but a very select few).

I am with most people here, leg shots are a bad idea, but assuming that someone thinks that's the way to go, I have much more faith in a hit from a shotgun than a handgun (I know, some pellets would miss, but with the leg shot, you are aiming down so they shouldn't do much damage unless they bounce). Anyone know what rounds police carry in their shotguns currently?
 
GreyGhost said:
It comes back around to cops shouldn't be intentionally engaging armed suspects with their handguns. When you know you are going into a hostile situation, the shotgun (mounted between the seats) should be coming with you. Handguns should be a last resort when the situation changes and you are away from your car. As firestart has said, police are entirely ill-equipped to deal with these situations, there is not enough time/money spent/available for the range. Even the US military does not approach training levels required for proficiency yet alone mastery (for all but a very select few).

I am with most people here, leg shots are a bad idea, but assuming that someone thinks that's the way to go, I have much more faith in a hit from a shotgun than a handgun (I know, some pellets would miss, but with the leg shot, you are aiming down so they shouldn't do much damage unless they bounce). Anyone know what rounds police carry in their shotguns currently?
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Shotguns carry their own legacy of issues so they are being replaced by AR-15's in many police services. Here are some downsides to using a shotgun:

1) Liability - If those pellets scatter, they are more likely to hit an innocent bystander <-- most important
2) Slow-loading - most service shotguns are manual action (typically pump action) so you can't get the speed of followup shots when engaging multiple targets
3) Low capacity - most service shotguns have much lower ammo capacity than your typical handgun, not to mention that shotshells take up much more room and are much heavier than safety cartridges for pistols
4) Huge recoil - Also slows down the followup shots and it's easy to develop a flinch that kills your accuracy without proper training
5) No penetration - If the suspect is wearing body armor, your shotgun will be next to useless as the cops in California found out in recent years

Running an AR with a decent dot takes care of all these issues, plus it's a lot easier to aim.
 
GreyGhost said:
Anyone know what rounds police carry in their shotguns currently?
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The shotguns are most likely loaded with 00 buck, with slugs nearby or even in a mounted shell holder so an officer can do a quick switch if the engagement distance dictates it. But shotguns are ****, and the officers likely have even less training on them than with their sidearms.
 
mmmnaked said:
The shotguns are most likely loaded with 00 buck, with slugs nearby or even in a mounted shell holder so an officer can do a quick switch if the engagement distance dictates it. But shotguns are ****, and the officers likely have even less training on them than with their sidearms.
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And here's why (too lazy to give other sources and they give a reasonably accurate account)..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout

Local patrol officers at the time were typically armed with their standard issue 9 mm or .38 Special pistols, with some having a 12-gauge shotgun available in their cars. Phillips and Mătăsăreanu carried illegally modified fully automatic Norinco Type 56 S-1s, a Bushmaster XM15 Dissipator, and a HK-91 rifle with high capacity drum magazines and ammunition capable of penetrating vehicles and police Kevlar vests. The bank robbers wore body armor which successfully deflected bullets and shotgun pellets fired by the responding patrolmen. SWAT eventually arrived bearing sufficient firepower, and they commandeered an armored truck to evacuate the wounded. Several officers also appropriated AR-15 rifles from a nearby firearms dealer. The incident sparked debate on the need for patrol officers to upgrade their capabilities in similar situations in the future.[4]
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There's no question about it, a semi-auto rifle is a must in this day and age. I wouldn't wanna be a cop without a rifle in the cruiser, that's just nonsense. Fumbling around with a pump shotgun is ridiculous- the amount of training someone needs to be truly proficient with that platform is out of the scope for most cops.
 
mmmnaked said:
There's no question about it, a semi-auto rifle is a must in this day and age. I wouldn't wanna be a cop without a rifle in the cruiser, that's just nonsense. Fumbling around with a pump shotgun is ridiculous- the amount of training someone needs to be truly proficient with that platform is out of the scope for most cops.
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Amen.. I really hope those services invest in decent optics as well because I wouldn't trust your typical cop to be able to use the irons effectively either. A decent dot like Eotech, Aimpoint, Trijicon or Meprolight makes it stupid easy and lightning fast.
 
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