Cornering situation

[awyala]

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The thing is though, if you don't know the corner and you have come in too hot, in order to turn it into a 2 turn corner, the 2nd turn-in is tightening the corner. Great for racing to shorten lap times, but not always effective for a newb to a new unknown corner.

At the risk of being misinterpreted by a newbie, what I do if I discover I'm in too hot (a judgement call of course), my usual practice if riding spirtitedly on a new-to-me road, is to enter a corner with a relatively tight line so that I always have a bit a room to stand it up, scruff off huge speed with front brake if I see that it's gonna tighten on me, and once big speed is scruffed off, set up to lean it over and allow myself to drift out using up the rest of my lane as I make way around the corner. Out of respect for all things unknown, I usually have this imaginary conservatism builtin to how wide the lane is where pavement meets shoulder, be it a painted line or dirt..I try to always see I have at least a foot or two less lane than I really do. If you're cooking fairly fast and the corner is tightening up quite a bit, a foot ain't much. Neither is two feet FTM.

One of the most common things I see when watching videos of (non) experts on track days, (or a video on You Tube before the 'incident' happens) is the vast majority of guys use ridiculous amounts of engine braking and even downshift! making things even more prone to unsettling when approaching a corner...guys who know what they're doing, downshift ahead of time with revs brought right up so that there is zero chassis unsettlement going on as they make their way through the corner as either a drive through, or even better a slight acceleration through, and then catch the next cog once outta the apex, depending on of course the myriad of variables..the bike (a 2 cyl twin vs a high revving inline, or if on street maybe not having race type rubber up to temp if you haven't had a chance to work them up etc etc)

IMO, this is why it takes more skill to extract the extremes out of twin than it does an inline, because an inline 4 usually gives a lot bigger rev-out range during cornering and is more forgiving if you are either in the wrong gear coming in or trying to get out. The twin rider has fewer revs to deal with and must exploit the torque on corners in order to make a competitive lap time.

So...who wants a can of Guinness now? Asking, cuz it quickly turned into bench race speak and created some reminiscing of past corners that got my attention on demand.

A lot of wisdom in that! Especially since I am now in the midst of a riding style transition from an inline 4 to a twin!!!

 

[awyala]

Have you actually ridden the track, or Do you watch videos?

I found this part particularily interesting:

"is the vast majority of guys use ridiculous amounts of engine braking and even downshift! making things even more prone to unsettling when approaching a corner"

What is one to do as approaching a corner?

I think he means while actually making the approach, perhaps with some lean angle involved, bobbing and weaving the back. Perhaps even the reason why slipper clutches are becoming so standard and engine braking electronics are now entering into the fray, thus allowing engine braking to be mitigated and down gearing possible even into the trail braking stage of turning. Without a slipper clutch and EB electronics, settling the bike is a priority before throwing it in and letting trail braking scrub off a little more speed, having already slashed off the chunk of the straight away speed while pretty much entirely upright.

 

[nesobriquet]

I hope this was not aimed at me? FYI I have been riding for over 35 years and currently own over 20 bikes.

As I have mentioned already in this post there are several ways to deal with this situation, and many factors play into it, it will depend on the corner, speed, skill, surface, etc. For those who cannot do it, they (As I mentioned) should take a class to learn some of the skills and how to deal with situations like this hands on.

no...of course not..

FWIW, your 35 years are very impressive, but if we're counting I got 12 years on ya..lol

As for your 20 bikes..lucky bugger..

 

[nesobriquet]

I think he means while actually making the approach, perhaps with some lean angle involved, bobbing and weaving the back. Perhaps even the reason why slipper clutches are becoming so standard and engine braking electronics are now entering into the fray, thus allowing engine braking to be mitigated and down gearing possible even into the trail braking stage of turning. Without a slipper clutch and EB electronics, settling the bike is a priority before throwing it in and letting trail braking scrub off a little more speed, having already slashed off the chunk of the straight away speed while pretty much entirely upright.

Thumb up to you, you were more courteous than I wudda been. I can tell from reading your post compared to hers/his?, you'd annihilate her/him? on the track. Unless maybe she can't read..I guess that's a possibility.

Someone who is fast and smooth on entry don't need slipper clutches. She'll probably want proof..and to that I would say consider how many fast laps/races were accomplished years before a slipper clutch was ever invented. Besides..commercially available slipper clutches on mass produced RR's are just marketing hype looking to exploit equipment bragging rights..who cares.. I wouldn't trust the cheapies..Perhaps they are a little more competent now than a few years ago on first intro? I think Kawi was first to try to get the naive with $ on board..was it with their 600RR?...forget..but was around the time they offered their first 636. Buncha hoopla on street bikes..the buyers would be better off taking a few courses...do them a pile more good than a.. haha...cheap slipper clutch.

Ride safe eh? Enjoy your new twin..it'll be extra fun exploring the different power delivery differences and utilizing the torque through corners. You'll find the dif challenging and challenging is always good.

 

[FriendlyFoe]

Have you actually ridden the track, or Do you watch videos?

I found this part particularily interesting:

"is the vast majority of guys use ridiculous amounts of engine braking and even downshift! making things even more prone to unsettling when approaching a corner"

What is one to do as approaching a corner?

Really? This was my favourite part

IMO, this is why it takes more skill to extract the extremes out of twin than it does an inline, because an inline 4 usually gives a lot bigger rev-out range during cornering and is more forgiving if you are either in the wrong gear coming in or trying to get out. The twin rider has fewer revs to deal with and must exploit the torque on corners in order to make a competitive lap time.

Funny because i shift less then the 600's do on my little SV. Psst riding a twin is easier rev wise because i can go through corners at a much lower rpm and still have enough torque to spin up a back tire. Just about everything else about a twin makes it harder IMO to get a lot out of them, but not that.



As a complete aside, i'd like to go back to the rear brake conversation! I've talked to a couple other people about it because i'm trying to expand my mind and because well i'm the first to admit that i'm wrong as long as i can make sense of why i'm wrong.

So what i've gotten from two other people is them having gotten the same *beginner* track day advice that i did, which was "forget that you even have a rear brake". My riding evolved from that, never worried about the rear brake in braking zones because i have no problem getting the back tire in the air, and have developed other ways (like steering lol) of making a bike go around corners.

I have two problems with the rear brake comments i was reading
Firstly with the comment that if you get bit by a decreasing radius corner to maintain throttle and use the rear brake. While i can accept that it will help tighten your line, if you're just going way too fast you still wont make the corner. In this situation are you using both the front and rear brake? How do you stay on the road then?

Secondly lets take the carousel at grand bend. If i could tighten my line with the rear brake at the end of the corner where it tightens that would be great, but the second you go into the corner you've got your knee on the ground and cant access the rear brake anymore. If i was going to run wide using the rear brake isn't an option so i need to have another way of dealing with that scenario. Hence my advice to roll off, when ever i've gotten that corner wrong and realize i'm not going to make the second half of it i roll off, maintain lean angle and the reduction in speed from engine braking is more then enough to put me back on line. I would be very curious to hear opinions as to why this is wrong.

 

[redridernl]

This thread has devolved into complaining about slipper clutches? Really? Banging down 3 gears, dumping the clutch and throwing the bike into a corner is a bad thing? Feels pretty darn good to me. :dontknow:

 

[FriendlyFoe]

i had never heard of engine braking reduction electronics before. Read up on it a little and thats kind of awesome, never understood why you'd hear some top level pro's talking about keeping the throttle cracked even under braking.

 

[nesobriquet]

This thread has devolved into complaining about slipper clutches? Really? Banging down 3 gears, dumping the clutch and throwing the bike into a corner is a bad thing? Feels pretty darn good to me. :dontknow:

Since you're 'pro' slipper clutch, "devolved" is not the word you wanted..

And I was referring (and said so) to the first ones made available as mass production. Do you really think your skill is equal to a rider who can do the same corner entry without a slipper clutch? Really?

Bunch a newbs are coming outta the wood-work left and right..I'm done here.

"Feels pretty darn good to me." haha, ya, ok..till it doesn't..

Few on these forums can read...they read what they think they get, and go with it, leaving out the meat. Maybe it's a comprehension problem? Ya..I'll go with that and give you the benefit of the doubt.

 

[redridernl]

Since you're 'pro' slipper clutch, "devolved" is not the word you wanted..

And I was referring (and said so) to the first ones made available as mass production. Do you really think your skill is equal to a rider who can do the same corner entry without a slipper clutch? Really?

Bunch a newbs are coming outta the wood-work left and right..I'm done here.

"Feels pretty darn good to me." haha, ya, ok..till it doesn't..

Few on these forums can read...they read what they think they get, and go with it, leaving out the meat. Maybe it's a comprehension problem? Ya..I'll go with that and give you the benefit of the doubt.

#1 Yes, it is the word I wanted. That's why I chose it.
#2 I didn't say my skills are that good. How do you know they're not?
#3 I may not have your experience but I've been riding for more than 18 years. Stop jumping to conclusions.
#4 By your logic I should cook over a camp fire because someday my stove may stop working.
#5 I don't need to you to give me the benefit of the doubt. Who are you anyway?

Geez

 

[FriendlyFoe]

LoL funny theres one kid who's running at SOAR events that claims (i still cant bring myself to believe him) to have never been on a road bike before round 1, and he's already running at the sharp end of things. Funny how little years of experience can mean.

 

[redridernl]

LoL funny theres one kid who's running at SOAR events that claims (i still cant bring myself to believe him) to have never been on a road bike before round 1, and he's already running at the sharp end of things. Funny how little years of experience can mean.

That's not surprising. Plenty of racers have never ridden a bike on the road and don't even have a license. I can't remember who at the moment but a pro racer went into a shop to a buy a litre bike and they wouldn't sell it to him because he was young and had just gotten his license.

 

[FriendlyFoe]

What is surprising is watching someone learn in 3 days what took me three years lol.

 

[redridernl]

What is surprising is watching someone learn in 3 days what took me three years lol.

I feel ya.

No homo

 

[dricked]

From someone who always rev matched to down shift on the road, I love the slipper on my Gsxr track bike (yep it's stock and works quite well). They aren't necessary but they come in hand once your pace increases. They aren't "marketing hype". The 600rr (Honda) is the last 600 to give you a slipper from the factory (is it standard now?)and when your prepping a bike for the track (where 600 ss are suppost to be) its an additional $700-$1000 added to the bill (if your slow enough to need/want it )

 

[Outlaws Justice]

Ya but your post count is too low and you've only been a member for a few months.

Thats Funny, I will make sure to ignore people who fall into that catagory from now on, Like over on the FZ1 forums, Nick Ienatsch has only been on the forum for a couple months and his post count is low, so I will dis-credit what he has to say, LOL

 

[Rob MacLennan]

I would suggest avoiding riding above moderate speeds on unfamiliar roads.

This is the correct answer.

Additionally, on the street you should treat all corners as if they're decreasing radius corners, unless you can see all the way through. Turn in late, carry the corner wide, and apex late. This lets you see further through the corner and, if you recognize that it tightens up or that there's an obstacle ahead, it gives you more time and space to react to it.

Do your speed adjustments when upright. Slow in, fast out. Search for, and read, "The Pace" as written by the above-mentioned Nick Ienatsch.

 

[dricked]

I think your sarcasm meter is broke.

 

[Outlaws Justice]

This is the correct answer.

Additionally, on the street you should treat all corners as if they're decreasing radius corners, unless you can see all the way through. Turn in late, carry the corner wide, and apex late. This lets you see further through the corner and, if you recognize that it tightens up or that there's an obstacle ahead, it gives you more time and space to react to it.

Do your speed adjustments when upright. Slow in, fast out. Search for, and read, "The Pace" as written by the above-mentioned Nick Ienatsch.

This is great general advice!

problem with it is that most people turn in early and it takes a lot of practice and commitment to get most people up to a confidence level to make them understand using a late turn in point and the advantages of doing so. You did a great job of explaining many of the reasons it is the best way to ride, now to get riders to actually use it.

 

[Rob MacLennan]

This is great general advice!

problem with it is that most people turn in early and it takes a lot of practice and commitment to get most people up to a confidence level to make them understand using a late turn in point and the advantages of doing so. You did a great job of explaining many of the reasons it is the best way to ride, now to get riders to actually use it.

Yup, it takes time and confidence, which is also why BusaBob's advice is important. The faster you go, the more likely it is that you turn in early. This is amplified when you're on an unfamiliar road. The more early you turn, the wider you go on the exit. If the turn also happens to tighten up, then you're likely to eat guardrail.

 

[murf]

From someone who always rev matched to down shift on the road, I love the slipper on my Gsxr track bike (yep it's stock and works quite well). They aren't necessary but they come in hand once your pace increases. They aren't "marketing hype". The 600rr (Honda) is the last 600 to give you a slipper from the factory (is it standard now?)and when your prepping a bike for the track (where 600 ss are suppost to be) its an additional $700-$1000 added to the bill (if your slow enough to need/want it )

Yup, the slipper clutches work fine for me.

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