Clayton Rivet death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

[Elwoodpdowd]

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Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Read through some of the SIU investigations and find the ones in which officers WERE charged - it does happen, but statistically, it should be the minority of cases. Police officers in Ontario deal with guilty, not guilty, and innocent people all day everyday. It's the cases in which people are seriously injured or killed that the SIU MUST investigate. Those make the news. The SIU investigates not to determine if everything the officers did was perfect, or desirable, but to see if charges should be laid.

When police conduct an investigation, it's usually because a crime has been committed - that's already a known fact - and they just have to ensure they come to the right conclusion about who is responsible.
When the SIU conducts an investigation, it's because someone was seriously injured or killed during an interaction with police - that doesn't mean a crime has been committed, and therefore it is less likely that charges will be laid as a result. It may result in recommendations to change procedure.

Good info, though my guess is they whitewash and put a lot of things under the rug, rip re rider

 

[Rimbambito]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

apparently not an issue in brazil.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ffa_1403572632

 

[hedo2002]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Yes IF the officer placed his cruiser in a position that left the rider NO way to avoid then that is wrong. VERY few of you have ever, (as I have worked as police officer), you have MILLISECONDS to make a decision. These decisions can lead to a life altering or life ending result.

I can assure you this officer didn't go on shift that evening saying, "goodness I hope someone dies tonight" Now having lived in Keswick for many years I am familiar with the road. The cruiser could NOT have completely blocked both lanes completely. There would have been enough space for a skilled rider, riding at a responsible speed to have avoided the cruiser. BUT for me to suggest that was an option is as silly as the poster who said a single bullet to a "non lethal" part of the body by police was an option in one of the other cases. Forget what you see in the movies.

Now having said that, posters have also said the officer placed "the public in danger" by, (IF he did positioning his cruiser on the road the way he did. This is not true. It placed the rider in danger. Now seeing as everyone likes to make assumptions, assume that the officer had let the rider pass pulled a quick turn and began a pursuit. The rider takes off to run, (which given his bravdo on FB is not out of the question). The rider then collides with another vehicle and kills a family of say 4. The officer would have been crucified, for pursuing the rider. But there still would have been a tragedy.

I realize that he was your friend and it is natural to try to place blame upon others and believe your friend did nothing wrong, I am sure I would do the exact same thing. But we have to be honest, the force of the collision clearly shows that your friends bike was traveling no where near the posted limit on that road.

NO ONE deserves to die, but sometimes people do things which contribute to the seriousness of the situation. You say the rider "didn't ride beyond his ability" well I would assert in this case he rode in a manner which made it impossible for him to stop or at least slow to a speed which may have been survivable. In this case it was a police cruiser, but it could have been a motorist making a left turn or u turn, the result would have likely been the same.

But let's not waiting for the accident reconstructionist to say how fast the rider was going or any other contributing factors. Let's blame the police as we as citizens never do any wrong it HAS to be the police all the time.

 

[ddusseld]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

This.

If the *assumption* that the cop blocked the road is true then I agree wholeheartedly with this post. The intent would have been to stop the rider with the belief that the rider had plenty of time to stop. Again, *assuming* this is the truth then the discussion becomes, is this a reasonable method to try and stop speeders? Without more facts I don't believe a reasonable conclusion can be arrived at.

I don't think anyone is defending the cop. I think it's more the point that people are trying to point out the consequences can be this severe. My group of friends lost a rider last year because he was speeding and a guy pulled a u-turn directly in front of him. The driver claimed he could not judge the speed our friend was going although he knew it was quick. The driver believed he had time to make the uturn.

I would hope this situation is similar in the fact that the cop likely believed the rider would have time to stop. I would hope in this case the cop never intended to kill the rider (Clayton).

Ill stop posting in respect to his friends here and I'm sorry for your loss.

 

[OnAnySunday]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Yes IF the officer placed his cruiser in a position that left the rider NO way to avoid then that is wrong. VERY few of you have ever, (as I have worked as police officer), you have MILLISECONDS to make a decision. These decisions can lead to a life altering or life ending result.

I can assure you this officer didn't go on shift that evening saying, "goodness I hope someone dies tonight" Now having lived in Keswick for many years I am familiar with the road. The cruiser could NOT have completely blocked both lanes completely. There would have been enough space for a skilled rider, riding at a responsible speed to have avoided the cruiser. BUT for me to suggest that was an option is as silly as the poster who said a single bullet to a "non lethal" part of the body by police was an option in one of the other cases. Forget what you see in the movies.

Now having said that, posters have also said the officer placed "the public in danger" by, (IF he did positioning his cruiser on the road the way he did. This is not true. It placed the rider in danger. Now seeing as everyone likes to make assumptions, assume that the officer had let the rider pass pulled a quick turn and began a pursuit. The rider takes off to run, (which given his bravdo on FB is not out of the question). The rider then collides with another vehicle and kills a family of say 4. The officer would have been crucified, for pursuing the rider. But there still would have been a tragedy.

I realize that he was your friend and it is natural to try to place blame upon others and believe your friend did nothing wrong, I am sure I would do the exact same thing. But we have to be honest, the force of the collision clearly shows that your friends bike was traveling no where near the posted limit on that road.

NO ONE deserves to die, but sometimes people do things which contribute to the seriousness of the situation. You say the rider "didn't ride beyond his ability" well I would assert in this case he rode in a manner which made it impossible for him to stop or at least slow to a speed which may have been survivable. In this case it was a police cruiser, but it could have been a motorist making a left turn or u turn, the result would have likely been the same.

But let's not waiting for the accident reconstructionist to say how fast the rider was going or any other contributing factors. Let's blame the police as we as citizens never do any wrong it HAS to be the police all the time.

wrong.

 

[inreb]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Hard to believe cop isn't guilty of something if known profiling data are of any use.

 

[Roomie]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Rider in the wrong or not how the hell can anyone justify what the cop did? I don't care what reconstruction says, he could have turned around and pursued like normal. By looking at the damage there if he didn't know the bike was moving that fast he shouldn't be a cop. Sorry hedo but we disagree. I'm with a cop and usually on their side because I see and hear a lot of what she puts up with but this one did the wrong thing here by trying to be a hero and get the big ticket and it cost someone a life.

 

[starboy869]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Whatever happened to applying the brakes and coming to a full stop?

Oh wait.. going way too fast to stop safely.

 

[nakkers]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

I don't run to the defence or justification of either party.

If the rider was driving a cage, would the cop taken the same course of action?

The reality is, riding is dangerous under the best of circumstances. If you are cut off or and obstacle is in front of you, you should be prepared to stop in time or have an escape route.

Rip rider.


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[Roomie]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Whatever happened to applying the brakes and coming to a full stop?

Oh wait.. going way too fast to stop safely.

Same thing that happened to turn around safely, flashing lights, issue ticket. Oh wait hard on for a fast bike got in the way

 

[kwtoxman]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

IMO, many people here have it wrong. If the cop cut off the bike, the legal question will be did what the cop do was reasonable? Do cops cut off motorcycles all the time? Is there precedence? Is there guidance in their training to do so or NOT with motorcycles? I am not aware of police using such drastic action with motorcycles chases in ON. There was the spike belt incident, but not at all to the level of using a police vehicle to block a road with a motorcycle chase. Let alone at night which the time when this occurred.

Speed contributed to the accident, but the direct cause of the accident in question would be the police officer actions where the cruiser cut off the motorcycle.

And think about recent examples. Czornobaj stopped for ducks on a highway blocking a lane. A motorcyclist and passenger were speeding up to 43% over the speed limit and they rear ended the vehicle. Didn't matter one bit. Czornobaj was found guilty of criminal negligence causing death, which was the most extreme option of all the potential guilty findings. Far more serious than dangerous driving causing death, etc. If they found Czornobaj so extremely guilty....

OTOH, police and accountability are like water and oil.

 

[nakkers]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

IMO, many people here have it wrong. If the cop cut off the bike, the legal question will be did what the cop do was reasonable? Do cops cut off motorcycles all the time? Is there precedence? Is there guidance in their training to do so or NOT with motorcycles? I am not aware of police using such drastic action with motorcycles chases in ON. There was the spike belt incident, but not using a police vehicle to block a road with a motorcycle chase. Let alone at night.

Speed contributed to the accident, but the direct cause of the accident in question would be the police officer actions where the cruiser cut off the motorcycle.

And think about recent examples. Czornobaj stopped for ducks on a highway blocking a lane. A motorcyclist and passenger were speeding up to 43% over the speed limit and they rear ended the vehicle. Didn't matter. Czornobaj was found guilty of criminal negligence causing death, far more serious than even dangerous driving causing death.

OTOH, police and accountability are like water and oil.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[JAMUS]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

If it were a normal collision (say in an intersection), isn't the driver turning left at fault?

Add the negligence of the officer driving, it was a bad call to pull in front of a moving vehicle with the hope they will stop safely. That's a gamble and also breaking the rules of the road. If the officer is breaking the rules, chances are Clayton wasn't expecting it - especially from a Police Officer.

This was not worth the cost. What would another officer do in this situation?

Throw the cherries on, U-Turn when safely, then attempt to pursuit? If he gets away, that's why we have license plates...

 

[jeffjones]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

If it were a normal collision (say in an intersection), isn't the driver turning left at fault?

...

Not if the driver he hits is on the wrong side of the road......

What I want to know is if the rider was so far on to the wrong side of the road, Did the police block the riders lane and accelerate into the other lane to block him further? If so, why would he risk getting T-boned in his drivers door by trying to block him?
and if the cop was on the wrong side of the road, why didn't the rider go behind him in his own lane?

With no information on which way each vehicle was travelling or coming from or road layouts, If there was a intersection near them (Can't tell from any of th epictures), the cop could have been turning left perpendicular to the rider and didn't see the speeding motorcycle until the last second and they both accelerated the same direction to avoid the accident? Not being on the cops side, just hoping a different scenario than murder by a ego maniac police officer..

 

[JAMUS]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Not if the driver he hits is on the wrong side of the road......

...just hoping a different scenario than murder by a ego maniac police officer..

Not murder, but definitely manslaughter by the least.

 

[Emefef]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

I don't care what reconstruction says,he could have turned around and pursued like normal

It's been pointed out several times that none of us were witnesses and everyone is speculating. Now you're going even further down that path. Whatever the evidence is, it doesn't matter. The cop was wrong.

There's so much cynicism about the police and the SIU "whitewashing" or failing to find officers guilty - very common public perception, and most often when it's about a case involving a friend or family member. Surely the police could have handled in a way that didn't end with injury or death. The irony is that the police seem to distrust the SIU as much as the public. Like you said "I don't care about the facts, what happened is wrong."

I wonder if the discussion would have been any different if the cop had been killed by the rider.

 

[hedo2002]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

I love the speculation and hypothesizing, that the officer should have let the bike pass safely then turned around and pursued. No ONE here knows how fast the bike was traveling. If the officer wasn't using radar then a fairly safe assumption would be it was traveling at a rate of speed the officer could immediately tell it was speeding. Again folks this isn't hollywood. If the bike was traveling at say 100 km/h and the cruiser was doing 80 km, do have any idea how far that bike would travel before the cruiser got turned around? That is assuming the rider didn't pin it when he saw the cruiser turning around.

So the officer begins a high speed pursuit, and the bike crashes and the rider is killed, because of his attempt to flee and speed. People would still be saying he should have been charged with murder. So in no way is there a positive outcome.. The ONLY positive outcome for the officer would have been if he could have been sure NO ONE withnessed the bike blow by him speeding, and that the rider didn't crash and kill himself or others. Sure JAMUS you read a licence plate on a speeding bike at night... good luck with that one. It is nearly impossible in a well lit area with great visibility at night. I know most bike pursuits I have been involved with you can't see the plate to start and do you think the rider would slow enough to permit it to be read??

Again I am NOT defending the officers actions I prefer to wait till those with the FACTS, comment. They can determine the speed of both vehicles from any skid marks, within a very small range.

It was called a "head on collision" as that is what it is. Most assume that means front to front but if at the last second one or both vehicles swerved it would still be classified as a head on.

Given the riders, self admitted speeds does anyone here think the second he saw that cruiser he considered pulling over to wait for his ticket? If you were on a dark back road late at night would you???? Exactly.

It is a tragedy, for EVERYONE involved.

But am I ready to hang the cop, not till all the facts are presented. I am sure there will be more than enough contributing factors that makes this tragic.

 

[Roomie]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Ok hypothesis out of the equation. It's now standard practice for cops to block oncoming traffic to get a speeder? Sounds safe to me no matter what speed.

It's sad poor judgement on how to stop a speeder took a life. Rip

Experts feel free to carry on.

 

[MarcosSantiago]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Hedo, everything was going fine till you post this part:

Given the riders, self admitted speeds does anyone here think the second he saw that cruiser he considered pulling over to wait for his ticket? If you were on a dark back road late at night would you???? Exactly.

The officer, at the moment just before the crash, had not way to know who the rider was, read his facebook page, know of his bragging, check driving record, or anything related to that. At that point, the rider is just one more rider on the road.

The officer has to assume that the rider is going to stop (like a decent person) and get his ticket. Anything other that that is overkill.

My 2 cents.

 

[Elwoodpdowd]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Seems if any car/ rider had sped away and caused a death, we would likely be posting why the cop never stopped the speeder, can't win..

it's obvious cops have to make instant decisions which often ends badly and often overkill

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