Canada Post - Huge losses

[GreyGhost]

Actually, YOU DON'T PAY FOR IT.
CP is Government Owned and is considered a Crown Corporation, but at the same point in time is also private. CP is different from proper government job (think Canada Revenue, Passport Offices etc etc).

The taxpayers of Canada do not subsidize CP.

Maybe not on a cash flow basis but when CP can no longer get more credit and the hole is 10B+, guess who's going to write that cheque?

 

[BigEvilDoer]

I understand that logic. Given that what you get is completely unsustainable, what is your idea to fix it? One way is new people get a sustainable rate and as old people leave, viability improves. Another way is everyone takes a cut to solve viability now. Option three is bring in more money (without increasing expenses at the same rate). Option four is wipe out a bunch of staff so each that remains does well financially but there are far fewer. I think that's about it. All of the options have at least some degree of unpalatability. Digging in heels and saying everybody gets an unsustainable rate of pay and taxpayers should subsidize with no limits is how we got to this cliff. Union will die on the cross to prevent options 1,2 and four as those reduce the union income. Option three is best for employees and union assuming that there is a viable path they can proceed down. That's not simple given a workforce that is paid much more than similar employees at competitors.

Now, don't get me wrong, I am also annoyed at management stringing employees along with the mythical carrot. Having management comp as a percentage of employee comp or profit is a great approach imo. Far too often they think they are special and deserve the moon for breathing. If they want a raise, they can improve the business. If the business is circling the toilet, they get a pay cut as an incentive to fix it.

Your points are somewhat valid, but not completely....
1) Rate of pay is unsustainable: I make $26/hour. Walking 25-34km a day. At that rate of pay, there's zero chance I could ever own a home anywhere in southern Ontario, except maybe Chatham-Kent. Considering the amount of wear and tear on our bodies, I think that's less than what we should be making.

2) New sustainable rate when hiring new posties to replace retiring ones. Well, you only get $22/hour when you start. Is that low enough, or should it be minimum wage? We cap out at $31/hour.

3) Bring in more money... this is key. CP has rejected the idea of postal banking outright. France made over $995 MILLION EUROS ($1,448,965,084.55 CDN) with it last year. Look at that.. pays off the debt and puts them squarely in the black by $750 Million. I think a change in regional rates would also make a great amount of sense. For example, it costs the same to send a letter 2km as it does to send one from Newfoundland to BC. Europeans pay significantly more to mail a letter in their countries that what we do. You can fit Germany into Ontario about 5 times. How does it make any sense that we don't charge regional distance like UPS, Fedex etc?

4) Wiping out staff. As I mentioned earlier, how much more do you want us to punish our bodies? by wiping out staff, you'd need to make the routes 40+km a day. Is that sustainable? Nope. The only option to achieve that would be to get rid of door-to-door delivery altogether and make every get super boxes. That's it.

As for the carrot, the management at my depot has no concept of a carrot. It's always the stick/hammer. I freaking hate this depot. I will be putting in transfer paperwork shortly to go to another depot... the only problem is, they only have positions that start later in the day and end past most supper times. I have a couple of side jobs which would directly be affected by this. So at the moment, I'm sucking it up as it's the only option I have to keep all 3 jobs going.

 

[GreyGhost]

Your points are somewhat valid, but not completely....
1) Rate of pay is unsustainable: I make $26/hour. Walking 25-34km a day. At that rate of pay, there's zero chance I could ever own a home anywhere in southern Ontario, except maybe Chatham-Kent. Considering the amount of wear and tear on our bodies, I think that's less than what we should be making.

2) New sustainable rate when hiring new posties to replace retiring ones. Well, you only get $22/hour when you start. Is that low enough, or should it be minimum wage? We cap out at $31/hour.

3) Bring in more money... this is key. CP has rejected the idea of postal banking outright. France made over $995 MILLION EUROS ($1,448,965,084.55 CDN) with it last year. Look at that.. pays off the debt and puts them squarely in the black by $750 Million. I think a change in regional rates would also make a great amount of sense. For example, it costs the same to send a letter 2km as it does to send one from Newfoundland to BC. Europeans pay significantly more to mail a letter in their countries that what we do. You can fit Germany into Ontario about 5 times. How does it make any sense that we don't charge regional distance like UPS, Fedex etc?

4) Wiping out staff. As I mentioned earlier, how much more do you want us to punish our bodies? by wiping out staff, you'd need to make the routes 40+km a day. Is that sustainable? Nope. The only option to achieve that would be to get rid of door-to-door delivery altogether and make every get super boxes. That's it.

As for the carrot, the management at my depot has no concept of a carrot. It's always the stick/hammer. I freaking hate this depot. I will be putting in transfer paperwork shortly to go to another depot... the only problem is, they only have positions that start later in the day and end past most supper times. I have a couple of side jobs which would directly be affected by this. So at the moment, I'm sucking it up as it's the only option I have to keep all 3 jobs going.

1) Hourly isn't everything especially in government union jobs. Total comp is what the employer feels and is much much higher than shows on your deposit (often close to double). In private sector, non-union jobs, total comp is more like 25% above hourly. Now, as with most government departments, I think most of the cuts should come from the relatively high percentage that do nothing other than monitor and complain. Huge management cuts in government would save money with little downside (other than to those cut who most likely take a huge pay cut and/or are unemployable because they are wankers).

2)Same as 1

3)Interesting. I will look into France. I am surprised that such a stream is so profitable. I'm not sure we should be using profitable streams to prop up losing streams though. If a stream isn't financially viable, we should strive to minimize or eliminate it. For instance your distance based price makes sense, super boxes make sense, delivering less often makes sense (it does have storage/logistical implications as previously discussed),

4)Again, I'm not advocating for same level of service and frontline cuts. Most of the cuts needed are higher up. Maybe frontline cuts are possible if service changes (eg mandatory superboxes should be much less labour intensive than walking routes or buildings).

Toxic management should get the boot. They do nothing to improve anything.

 

[Scuba Steve]

Your points are somewhat valid, but not completely....
1) Rate of pay is unsustainable: I make $26/hour. Walking 25-34km a day. At that rate of pay, there's zero chance I could ever own a home anywhere in southern Ontario, except maybe Chatham-Kent. Considering the amount of wear and tear on our bodies, I think that's less than what we should be making.

2) New sustainable rate when hiring new posties to replace retiring ones. Well, you only get $22/hour when you start. Is that low enough, or should it be minimum wage? We cap out at $31/hour.

3) Bring in more money... this is key. CP has rejected the idea of postal banking outright. France made over $995 MILLION EUROS ($1,448,965,084.55 CDN) with it last year. Look at that.. pays off the debt and puts them squarely in the black by $750 Million. I think a change in regional rates would also make a great amount of sense. For example, it costs the same to send a letter 2km as it does to send one from Newfoundland to BC. Europeans pay significantly more to mail a letter in their countries that what we do. You can fit Germany into Ontario about 5 times. How does it make any sense that we don't charge regional distance like UPS, Fedex etc?

4) Wiping out staff. As I mentioned earlier, how much more do you want us to punish our bodies? by wiping out staff, you'd need to make the routes 40+km a day. Is that sustainable? Nope. The only option to achieve that would be to get rid of door-to-door delivery altogether and make every get super boxes. That's it.

As for the carrot, the management at my depot has no concept of a carrot. It's always the stick/hammer. I freaking hate this depot. I will be putting in transfer paperwork shortly to go to another depot... the only problem is, they only have positions that start later in the day and end past most supper times. I have a couple of side jobs which would directly be affected by this. So at the moment, I'm sucking it up as it's the only option I have to keep all 3 jobs going.

Sounds like the whole thing is broken, front line pay is low. With some good automation and a over haul of management and removing the union things could work.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

 

[Jayell]

But it's also asking for an additional 10 paid days off.. and that's worth another 4% per year.

This is not so. Several years ago, the federal government mandated ten sick days for all. Canada Post employees were only given six.

Currently, CUPW members have seven personal days, plus the new six mentioned above. The union is fighting for the remaining four days.

That's not simple given a workforce that is paid much more than similar employees at competitors.

Purolator, UPS, FedEx, etc., all earn more than posties.

 

[GreyGhost]

Purolator, UPS, FedEx, etc., all earn more than posties.

Total comp or salary? From what I have seen, salary is higher but I haven't seen a good analysis of total comp. Defined benefit pension plan is very expensive are rarely offered in private industry.

 

[Jayell]

Total comp or salary? From what I have seen, salary is higher but I haven't seen a good analysis of total comp. Defined benefit pension plan is very expensive are rarely offered in private industry.

I'm referring to the hourly rate. I'm not familiar with their benefits.

Perhaps you are?

 

[GreyGhost]

I'm referring to the hourly rate. I'm not familiar with their benefits.

Perhaps you are?

Just what I have found. While employees often focus on hourly rate, employers focus on total comp as that's what they have to pay. Expensive benefits like a defined benefit pension drive up the hourly cost substantially but don't show up in the employees hourly rate that they think they are being paid. An accurate comparison would have CP total comp vs courier total comp. I haven't seen that easily laid out anywhere. I suspect relative to gig courier, CP total comp is far higher. The interesting data point is traditional couriers. I don't have data for CP total comp per hour nor Purolator/UPS/Fedex total comp. I haven't spent time looking for it though.

 

[BigEvilDoer]

Just what I have found. While employees often focus on hourly rate, employers focus on total comp as that's what they have to pay. Expensive benefits like a defined benefit pension drive up the hourly cost substantially but don't show up in the employees hourly rate that they think they are being paid. An accurate comparison would have CP total comp vs courier total comp. I haven't seen that easily laid out anywhere. I suspect relative to gig courier, CP total comp is far higher. The interesting data point is traditional couriers. I don't have data for CP total comp per hour nor Purolator/UPS/Fedex total comp. I haven't spent time looking for it though.

Well, this may be surprising to you.
UPS vs CP benefits are very, very similar. The only thing I am unclear on with that are pensions.

At 4 years, I am making $26 (that's including the extra $1 for being a Relief Letter Carrier (I fill in routes where people are sick, have appointments etc etc, and may have up to 3 different sections of routes per day).

At 4 years, UPS drivers are making $39.
At 7 years, CP makes $31.

I would absolutely make the switch in a heart beat if the first 2 years at UPS are around $21/hour.

Considering that, CP is royally mismanaging things.

 

[BigEvilDoer]

Maybe not on a cash flow basis but when CP can no longer get more credit and the hole is 10B+, guess who's going to write that cheque?

How is that any different from the bailouts for GM, Ford etc?

 

[GreyGhost]

How is that any different from the bailouts for GM, Ford etc?

Those shouldn't have happened either. It is different though as government had no obligation to bail them out. That was a choice politicians made. I suspect bailing out CP will be unavoidable. Also, a bailout only makes sense if the entity learns from their mistakes and reorganizes to something that can thrive. If it just resets the debt clock and continues on the same path, it is better to let it die asap. I have no faith that any decision will be based on reality or financial analysis. It will be political.

 

[Jayell]

The taxpayers of Canada do not subsidize CP.

Correct. Canada Post is a for profit, self sufficient entity, paying corporate taxes, not unlike any other business.

If you do nothing other than receive mail, the service costs you not one thin dime.

 

[GreyGhost]

Well, this may be surprising to you.
UPS vs CP benefits are very, very similar. The only thing I am unclear on with that are pensions.

At 4 years, I am making $26 (that's including the extra $1 for being a Relief Letter Carrier (I fill in routes where people are sick, have appointments etc etc, and may have up to 3 different sections of routes per day).

At 4 years, UPS drivers are making $39.
At 7 years, CP makes $31.

I would absolutely make the switch in a heart beat if the first 2 years at UPS are around $21/hour.

Considering that, CP is royally mismanaging things.

I can't find total comp. It's not in the interest of the union to shine light on it as they want to cry poor on hourly rate and push for more. CP management doesn't want light on anything as it would prove their incompetence. It looks like CP contributes at least 10-14% of your income to your pension (100% match) as well as covering any shortfalls and providing the inflation indexing.

UPS is a defined contribution plan for non-union and defined benefit for union employees. I can't find numbers. Got lost in tons of PR with no substance from both sides.

 

[ReSTored]

CP is supposedly autonomous from the government of Canada.

The Government sets policy..........

The role of the minister is to determine the broad policy direction of the corporation while respecting its operational autonomy in other matters.

And CP runs operations..............

Canada Post Corporation Oversight - Canada.ca

Reports and information about Canada Post

www.canada.ca

If you really believe the government is not intimately involved in postage rates, community mailbox rollout (or not) and anything else that might impact votes please fill a shoebox with $20 bills and PM me. I'll tell you where to send it via courier. Normally I'd use Express Post, but CP is on strike........... Also, I have some land in Florida I'm trying to sell.

 

[sburns]

How is that any different from the bailouts for GM, Ford etc?

They make money, and generate probably lots more indirectly. Plus they paid back the loans well before the due dates.
Financially things are much different better/then when those bailouts happened.
What chance does CP have of paying it back?

 

[Evoex]

They make money, and generate probably lots more indirectly. Plus they paid back the loans well before the due dates.
Financially things are much different better/then when those bailouts happened.
What chance does CP have of paying it back?

Oh I had a spicy comment for you here, on 2nd thought didn't want to get personal!

 

[raginduck]

This is not so. Several years ago, the federal government mandated ten sick days for all. Canada Post employees were only given six.

Currently, CUPW members have seven personal days, plus the new six mentioned above. The union is fighting for the remaining four days.



Purolator, UPS, FedEx, etc., all earn more than posties.

Thanks for clarifying. On the cupw site.. the way it's listed under demands.. it's appears they're asking for '10 paid medical days'.