CA/US forces Vs. Afg/Iraq Hajis

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sinbin said:
....yyyyeaaah..10-4 good buddy. What would we do without "allies" like your brethren in Pakistan. And what would the Taliban do without them, eh?
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Ahh ofcourse............like history doesn't illustrate enough examples of these......Allies don't necessarily go with everything you say. Pakistan has handed over a lot of AQ leaders, Taliban are their friends like IRA were friends of the Americans while America considered Britain an ally, isn't it? Ever heard of "Lavon Affair" in 1954 the famous Israeli False flag operation where Israel Planted bombs on American and British owned targets in Egypt?? Did you know Israel Denied that for 50 years until recently it awarded appreciation certificates to those involved. If that is not a slap to America and Britain i don't know what is.......given all these wonderful examples of allies plus many Israeli spies caught in espionage against America.....(btw Israel gets the biggest chunk of foreign AID, more then All Africa combined) Why would Pakistan go against the only Pro Pakistan government in its history? I am giving the Israeli example because both presidents go head over heels to appease this state like none other......The only lobby group which hosts both parties to present their loyalties to them is AIPAC(American Israeli Public Affairs Committee).

Taliban did not attack America, they demanded proof and none was provided. Infact they demanded proof when Osama was accused of the 98 Tanzania and Kenya bombings....he was put on trial for that in Afghanistan. If you dont provide me proof of someone;s guilt, and if i am man enough i would stand for justice and protect the person as he is innocent until proven guilty.
Plus do you know Pakistan lost more soldiers then America/Nato combined to flush out the Taliban and AQ?? You know how many suicide bombings happened in Pakistan over the last 5 years inspired by AQ?
America is a terrorist state with the biggest military budget on the planet. Infact they outrun all other countries combined with their defence budgets......America is the biggest seller of weapons in the world.....

Lessons in Hypocrisy 101

The Permanent Members of UN are

1) America
2) Britain
3) China
4) France
5) Russia

Guess what are their biggest exports???

Weapons!!

So don't tell me Pakistan is a hypocrite while all these other wonderful countries are the epitome of peace and Justice. And for the record ****** Pakistan.......I don't stand for any country, language or ethnicity......these divide us for no reason. I stand for justice which does not recognize these superficial boundaries.
 
I could pick this apart, but I'll just put in a few points

1. refusal to extradite doesn't mean that the country requesting extradition is not providing proof (and what proof? its not a court of law), if history and current events are any indication, its a "**** you" by the country refusing it.
2. I think its amusing that you like to paint the taliban as some kind of force for truth and justice, when they execute women accused of adultry. oook. I mean, your view is so representative of a certain stereotype that what you were going to say was predictable from the first post.
3. General point, very very loose with facts. China's biggest export is weapons? what?
 
OpenGambit said:
2. I think its amusing that you like to paint the taliban as some kind of force for truth and justice, when they execute women accused of adultry. oook. I mean, your view is so representative of a certain stereotype that what you were going to say was predictable from the first post.
3. General point, very very loose with facts. China's biggest export is weapons? what?
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2. I don't get why anyone is standing up for the Taliban. Maybe he's just trying to make a point that they were a government and we're not doing anything about Saudi Arabia human right issues.
3. I legitimately don't know, but don't they make most of the parts for the worlds weapons. It's a stretch, but one could argue that they export a lot of "weapons" then.
 
nice videos, thanks for sharing
the c9 gnr in the first vid sure had a sh it load of ammo... i like his stoppage drills, lol
 
Honestly, Canada was in Afghanistan because the UN said they were going if they didn't go to Iraq.

The mission was warfighting but at the same time we were trying to give them a stable government, military, police force modeled on western society.

Gen. Hillier said that they would never change unless someone showed them another way of life IE: learning a trade or a skill that would make them money and support their economies. It's too easy to join the Taliban and make money killing. They need to learn trades like carpentry, welding, etc.

IMO, if they truly want that then we were there doing the right thing however, if they didn't then we were just trying to push our way of life on them.

The problem is (as it's always been) time. You can't change a country in 10 years even though that seems like a long time but in the sandbox it's a tick of a clock. You would have to convince generations of people to change, or adapt to a new way of life.
Basically they were down with our idea but they they needed us to stay there for a very long time until the change occurred.

My estimate, 50 years..... minimum.

Currently we are in Kabul mentoring their police and military in hopes that they can run themselves.

2000-2010 we were there killing Taliban and "freedom fighters" who just didn't want us there. Never killed a "terrorist" personally which makes me laugh because if you ask an American who the terrorists are in Afghanistan they say the Gundies. I say, the Americans were......
 
OpenGambit said:
I could pick this apart, but I'll just put in a few points

1. refusal to extradite doesn't mean that the country requesting extradition is not providing proof (and what proof? its not a court of law), if history and current events are any indication, its a "**** you" by the country refusing it.
2. I think its amusing that you like to paint the taliban as some kind of force for truth and justice, when they execute women accused of adultry. oook. I mean, your view is so representative of a certain stereotype that what you were going to say was predictable from the first post.
3. General point, very very loose with facts. China's biggest export is weapons? what?
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I would want you to take it apart

1)Firstly you need an extradition treaty with the country before any extradition can take place, there was none. Taliban were never recognized as a legitimate government though they sent their envoy who was studying in Yale called " sayed Rahmatullah Hashemi"[FONT=arial, sans-serif].
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Secondly not only did they request evidence to hand over bin laden and try him in Afghanistan
(http://articles.cnn.com/2001-10-07/...am-zaeef-surrender-bin-taliban-offer?_s=PM:US)

they offered America to try him in a neutral county given evidence is provided. President Bush rejected that offer.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2001/10/14/taliban_offer011014.html

Mr.Bush said "turn [bin Laden] over, turn his cohorts over, turn any hostages they hold over." He added, "There's no need to discuss innocence or guilt. We know he's guilty".

So we should trust Mr.Bush for his word and not demand evidence, Unless someone is stupid enough not to know the consist streak of lies perpetrated by the American government like the Gulf of tonkin, Human experimentation of Syphilis on Guatemalans(http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/10/01/us-usa-guatemala-experiment-idUSTRE6903RZ20101001), Iraq war lies etc.

Any principled human or country would demand evidence before extraditing any individual within its borders. There are legal procedures that take place before this can happen. Like America refused to extradite Bolivian ex president to face genocide charges(Bolivia should tell them what Bush told Taliban and bomb the **** out of them)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/sep/09/america-refusal-extradite-bolivia

You cant bully someone into extradition unless ofcourse you are united states of Arrogance.

Many countries have refused American extradition request....

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/wor...urt-refused-extradite-convicted-murderer.html
http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/06/29...s-sex-crimes-suspect-on-human-rights-grounds/
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/1997-10-01/news/9710010202_1_nile-water-israel-water-level

the list goes on

Also FYI FBI's Bin Laden profile doesn't mention September 11. FBI director Robert Mueller stated there is no hard evidence for Bin Laden's involvement.

(http://books.google.ca/books?id=xzk...q=fbi robert mueller no hard evidence&f=false)


Bin Laden's FBI profile

http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/wanted_terrorists/usama-bin-laden

So principally speaking the Taliban had every right to deny extradition.

2)Taliban don't differentiate between genders for punishment, what's good for goose is good for gander.

3) Amnesty International puts China into the 6 biggest arms exporters. The problem is no one is accurately able to determine how much China produces because they refuse auditing

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/big-six-arms-exporters-2012-06-11

On how China refuses UN investigators and blocks reports exposing their dirty game.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/chinas-arms-exports-flooding-sub-saharan-africa/2012/08/25/16267b68-e7f1-11e1-936a-b801f1abab19_story.html

Point being these countries are the biggest producers of Arms in the world, no denying that. And they happen to be the permanent members of an organization which works for peace. Interestingly strange isn't it.
 
IMO one area they went wrong in Afghanistan was not reinstating the king once the Taliban was ousted (well the old king's son). Now many may say a monarchy is so 200 years ago, but that is where they are. The average people there do not understand democracy (it is a completely esoteric idea) in that every few years a new guy is in charge. Put the king back in a system like ours (with the Islamic tilt of course) and the average person (THERE) gets behind the king and thinks the prime minster is just the day to day guy, they get that. Even if the PM has all the power...

Problem is, the US doesn't understand that and their internal dogma says it is wrong (they would rather a dictator than a king). Sometimes the solution is really not all that complicated. The idea is to give the people a reason to not join the "resistance". They will just not understand what is being thrown on them, you cannot advance 200 years in 10.
 
D23 said:
Honestly, Canada was in Afghanistan because the UN said they were going if they didn't go to Iraq.
......
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This could well be true, but:

I don't recall any public explanation. And
It sucks as a reason, since
- I didn't know the UN could order Canada to war, and
- "You wouldn't go to Iraq so you're going to fight a war against insert_country_name_here." is not a good reason for people to die.
 
johnp said:
- I didn't know the UN could order Canada to war
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Not order friend, influence.
We are not a major player who tells the UN what to do so..... they tell us.

Our option is to leave.

Be third world but warm in a blanket of morality?

I'll Pass.
 
Freak said:
2)Taliban don't differentiate between genders for punishment, what's good for goose is good for gander.

3) Amnesty International puts China into the 6 biggest arms exporters. The problem is no one is accurately able to determine how much China produces because they refuse auditing

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/big-six-arms-exporters-2012-06-11

On how China refuses UN investigators and blocks reports exposing their dirty game.

Point being these countries are the biggest producers of Arms in the world, no denying that. And they happen to be the permanent members of an organization which works for peace. Interestingly strange isn't it.
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2) the point isn't about gender, the point is that its barbaric, even then, the point that the Taliban treats both sexes equally is completely false. I am surprised you would even try to make that sort of arguement.

3) arms is still not the biggest export of China, The US does not outspend everyone else on defence combined, those aren't facts even though you casually throw them out. Again. very very loose with facts. If the point is that China is among the biggest producers of arms, fine, but biggest export is arms? complete garbage.

If you want to engage someone intelligent on a point, maybe you should edit out the BS. Because neither I nor anyone else with a brain is going to argue with someone that decides to start off with a false reality.
 
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Freak said:
I would want you to take it apart

1)Firstly you need an extradition treaty with the country before any extradition can take place, there was none. Taliban were never recognized as a legitimate government though they sent their envoy who was studying in Yale called " sayed Rahmatullah Hashemi".

Secondly not only did they request evidence to hand over bin laden and try him in Afghanistan
(http://articles.cnn.com/2001-10-07/...am-zaeef-surrender-bin-taliban-offer?_s=PM:US)

they offered America to try him in a neutral county given evidence is provided. President Bush rejected that offer.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2001/10/14/taliban_offer011014.html

Mr.Bush said "turn [bin Laden] over, turn his cohorts over, turn any hostages they hold over." He added, "There's no need to discuss innocence or guilt. We know he's guilty".

So we should trust Mr.Bush for his word and not demand evidence, Unless someone is stupid enough not to know the consist streak of lies perpetrated by the American government like the Gulf of tonkin, Human experimentation of Syphilis on Guatemalans(http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/10/01/us-usa-guatemala-experiment-idUSTRE6903RZ20101001), Iraq war lies etc.

Any principled human or country would demand evidence before extraditing any individual within its borders. There are legal procedures that take place before this can happen. Like America refused to extradite Bolivian ex president to face genocide charges(Bolivia should tell them what Bush told Taliban and bomb the **** out of them)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/sep/09/america-refusal-extradite-bolivia

You cant bully someone into extradition unless ofcourse you are united states of Arrogance.

Many countries have refused American extradition request....

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/wor...urt-refused-extradite-convicted-murderer.html
http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/06/29...s-sex-crimes-suspect-on-human-rights-grounds/
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/1997-10-01/news/9710010202_1_nile-water-israel-water-level

the list goes on

Also FYI FBI's Bin Laden profile doesn't mention September 11. FBI director Robert Mueller stated there is no hard evidence for Bin Laden's involvement.

(http://books.google.ca/books?id=xzkd4jsM4XwC&pg=PA47&lpg=PA47&dq=fbi+robert+mueller+no+hard+evidence&source=bl&ots=ryB5Fs4NR-&sig=xOTT3i4bN85b3SvidDsZ-Il4n3A&hl=en#v=onepage&q=fbi%20robert%20mueller%20no%20hard%20evidence&f=false)


Bin Laden's FBI profile

http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/wanted_terrorists/usama-bin-laden

So principally speaking the Taliban had every right to deny extradition.

2)Taliban don't differentiate between genders for punishment, what's good for goose is good for gander.

3) Amnesty International puts China into the 6 biggest arms exporters. The problem is no one is accurately able to determine how much China produces because they refuse auditing

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/big-six-arms-exporters-2012-06-11

On how China refuses UN investigators and blocks reports exposing their dirty game.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/chinas-arms-exports-flooding-sub-saharan-africa/2012/08/25/16267b68-e7f1-11e1-936a-b801f1abab19_story.html

Point being these countries are the biggest producers of Arms in the world, no denying that. And they happen to be the permanent members of an organization which works for peace. Interestingly strange isn't it.
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Very refreshing post, thank u

D23 said:
Not order friend, influence.
We are not a major player who tells the UN what to do so..... they tell us.
...

I'll Pass.
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That there is one of the reasons I can never be a soldier. You sacrifice your life for someone else's cause.
However, I admire the ppl who do
 
I was always in favour of the Afghanistan affair as a punitive expedition - get in, kick some ***, get out; not as a long-term invasion. The government that we democratically elected at gun point over there is really Taliban 2.0 - one of their first acts was to legalize marital rape. My take on it is to let them sort their own crap out. No need to waste our lives and tax dollars on "helping" people that don't wanna be helped.
 
OpenGambit said:
2) the point isn't about gender, the point is that its barbaric, even then, the point that the Taliban treats both sexes equally is completely false. I am surprised you would even try to make that sort of arguement.

3) arms is still not the biggest export of China, The US does not outspend everyone else on defence combined, those aren't facts even though you casually throw them out. Again. very very loose with facts. If the point is that China is among the biggest producers of arms, fine, but biggest export is arms? complete garbage.

If you want to engage someone intelligent on a point, maybe you should edit out the BS. Because neither I nor anyone else with a brain is going to argue with someone that decides to start off with a false reality.
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1)The argument I am making is very simple, the punishments Taliban gave out had nothing to do with gender. They don't differentiate between a man or a woman. If you want to make a case give me one example where they exclusively punished a woman and not a man. They rule according to hanafi law of jurisprudence and I have studied it, there is nothing in the entire corpus of jurisdic literature which spans multiple volumes and several books that calls for a separate punishment for a woman and not the man.
The punishments they issues are in line with the religion they follow, they didnt invent these punishments FYI.

2)China biggest exports are not arms, and your point is?

Let me reiterate what i said before and see if it somehow makes my argument weaker.


Lessons in Hypocrisy 101

The Permanent Members of UN are

1) America
2) Britain
3) China
4) France
5) Russia

Guess who are the biggest exporters of arms in the world???
It still remains hypocrisy which was my general thesis..........your pointing out that small inaccuracy did not harm the general thesis at all.


US spending as detailed by International Institute of Strategic studies

http://www.iiss.org/publications/mi...tement/figure-comparative-defence-statistics/

My bad i forgot to take the Sub Saharan and South American budgets into consideration. So America accounts for 45.7% of the world's defense spending and not 51%......and your point is?

Sorry I dont see how these nitty gritty details ofset the arguments i presented?" And how are these false realities?" You attack a fraction of the argument which does not break down the argument at all. What i loosely presented still stands and i am yet to understand what is the purpose of pointing these out.
 
awyala said:
Hey bigot OP, you know what "Haji" means?
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The Russians used a more appropriate nickname for Taliban fighters - "muj"... Not that it did'em any good in the end as the entire "free world" celebrated the victory of the Taliban "freedom fighters" (now referred to as "terrorizer insurgents") :cool:
 
awyala said:
Hey bigot OP, you know what "Haji" means?
Click to expand...

Westerners think it's a derogatory term. Don't be surprised by the ignorance surrounding that.

I never met an American Soldier who knew. Even their officers.
 
Freak said:
Sorry I dont see how these nitty gritty details ofset the arguments i presented?" And how are these false realities?" You attack a fraction of the argument which does not break down the argument at all. What i loosely presented still stands and i am yet to understand what is the purpose of pointing these out.
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I didn't attack the argument, i haven't even gotten there yet. Because you have the facts wrong. If you can't even bother to present your argument on a base of factually accurate assertions, how can I, or anyone else speak intelligently about it? I skimmed your post, saw a bunch of things that were wrong, and didn't take it seriously. That is not my fault, thats your fault as the presenter of the argument.

Why should you get a pass on facts that are wrong?

and your new posts are getting even more insane. No difference between men and women?

In Education, Healthcare, marriage, mobility rights, employment, all completely not true.

Amnesty International reported that 80 percent of Afghan marriages were considered to be arranged by force.

But don't let facts stop you, keep going with this Taliban are the good guys argument.
 
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awyala said:
Hey bigot OP, you know what "Haji" means?
Click to expand...

Looks like he is about to start on a moral relativism argument. I don't have time for this crap.
 
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