Bobcaygeon OPP | Page 2 | GTAMotorcycle.com

Bobcaygeon OPP

Wingboy said:
Question. Would the discussion be different if the dad had killed the child and then himself?
I feel for the police involved in this. They had to see the end result of this right up close.
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maybe they can share with co-workers how sh1tty it feels to shoot and kill an infant

and next time an *******, armed, disgruntled father absconds with his kid
they can find a solution that doesn't involve 2 dead people

fuk them, they get paid for this, suck it up and take the free counselling
they should be better at their jobs
 
J_F said:
maybe they can share with co-workers how sh1tty it feels to shoot and kill an infant

and next time an *******, armed, disgruntled father absconds with his kid
they can find a solution that doesn't involve 2 dead people

fuk them, they get paid for this, suck it up and take the free counselling
they should be better at their jobs
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Wow. Didn't know it was that easy.
 
The cops could tell us all how it ruined their soul to have a father of young child put them in a situation where they had to defend them selves with any means possible, up to and including shooting.

From the first call from the wife, to the guy trying to run a cop down, and maybe taking a couple of shots with his illegal handgun, with his truck was 20-25 minutes.
Kawartha Lakes OPP, there's no Bobcaygeon OPP station, don't gots no heliocoptor or rapid response team... or pretty much anything else.

So Mr. J_F: What would YOU have done when the guy was trying to kill YOU with his truck?
You got ZERO seconds. GO
As noted earlier; letting the guy that has a kidnap victim in the truck with him get away is not going to happen. They HAVE to contain the situation, and anyone that doesn't see that is an idiot.
 
bitzz said:
The cops could tell us all how it ruined their soul to have a father of young child put them in a situation where they had to defend them selves with any means possible, up to and including shooting.

From the first call from the wife, to the guy trying to run a cop down, and maybe taking a couple of shots with his illegal handgun, with his truck was 20-25 minutes.
Kawartha Lakes OPP, there's no Bobcaygeon OPP station, don't gots no heliocoptor or rapid response team... or pretty much anything else.

So Mr. J_F: What would YOU have done when the guy was trying to kill YOU with his truck?
You got ZERO seconds. GO
As noted earlier; letting the guy that has a kidnap victim in the truck with him get away is not going to happen. They HAVE to contain the situation, and anyone that doesn't see that is an idiot.
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Look at the pictures he wasn't going anywhere his truck was missing a wheel after hitting the cruiser.

Sent from my moto g(8) plus using Tapatalk
 
I can't imagine there are a lot of cops in that area, I have run into them in the past and I can say they are prickish and certainly lack the professionalism I would expect from OPP.
 
I'm pretty much with J_F here

I have a hard time imagining circumstances where the child's life was acceptable collateral damage

Now let us await the SIU's usual intense and transparent investigation
 
Mad Mike said:
I can't imagine there are a lot of cops in that area, I have run into them in the past and I can say they are prickish and certainly lack the professionalism I would expect from OPP.
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This happened just up the road from my house.
I don't have a problem with the local police BUT they are a cottage/farm community police force. Their job for the most part is traffic enforcement and not responding to B&Es.
Their track record for major crime is kinda dismal.

J_F is trying to make this a Floyd George thing, but it isn't.
 
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TwistedKestrel said:
I'm pretty much with J_F here

I have a hard time imagining circumstances where the child's life was acceptable collateral damage

Now let us await the SIU's usual intense and transparent investigation
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I'll ask you the same thing then
What else were they supposed to do?

... and the SIU has been un-characteristically open and forthcoming in THIS case... at least at the beginning... haven't heard much lately
 
Well that would be prejudicial. We don't know if the child's life *was* collateral damage.

If we presuppose it was, and we also presuppose that the police are not completely insane, they drew their firearms for one of two reasons:
-the father brandished a firearm
-the father was attempting to maneuver his vehicle to strike a police officer

Having established a little distance would greatly mitigate either problem. Forcing a conclusion to the situation *might* be justifiable if the dangerous person was alone, or maybe even if they had no reason to suspect he wasn't alone. The SIU themselves seem to admit that they had reasonable suspicion that the father had the child with him from the start, though.
 
bitzz said:
I'll ask you the same thing then
What else were they supposed to do?

... and the SIU has been un-characteristically open and forthcoming in THIS case... at least at the beginning... haven't heard much lately
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What would I do? I can't say as I wasn't there. But if you read between the lines you might guess at a few details:

1) The suspect hit a cruiser that was probably blocking the road, I doubt the suspect saw an OPP cruisier at the side of the road and decided to take it out.
2) I'd retrain the OPP officer who was standing beside his roadblocking-car while watching a bad guy plow into him.
3) I'd look into why the bad guy was riddled with bullets - was he punished for the injured cop's dumbness or were the three OPP shooters lives in imminent danger warranting the use of lethal force?
4) If I were a cop in their shoes I'd be most worried about the baby and would be acting accordingly. No high speed chases, no spike strips, shooting out tires or roadblocks. Just follow the guy till he stops then maintain distance and use the time to deploy resources that are skilled in de-escalation.
 
Hack said:
Sure, however safety of the public at large is also a major concern. Ergo the suspect must be prevented from fleeing. This is SOP.
Spike belt... probably not enough time to deploy or... Too dangerous to do so in the given circumstance.
Sure, gunfire isn't anyone's first choice, but... A social worker probably wasn't available to help deescalate the situation.
It'll be interesting to read the findings of the investigation... They'll determine who's weapons fired which rounds.
Until then lets continue speculation on things we know nothing about, or better yet... Nut up Ontario Provincial Police - Careers
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Watch some YouTube high speed police chases and you'll find it amazing how vehicles can run on rims at high speeds.

If the guy had an illegal hand gun we are not talking about a normal guy having a bad day.

Without a parallel universe for comparison we will never know what could have happened if a different approach was taken. A happy ending or a Nova Scotia massacre?
 
bitzz said:
This happened just up the road from my house.
I don't have a problem with the local police BUT they are a cottage/farm community police force. Their job for the most part is traffic enforcement and not responding to B&Es.
Their track record for major crime is kinda dismal.

J_F is trying to make this a Floyd George thing, but it isn't.
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I get that, but they are paid a lot and even though they aren't in difficult situations day in and day out, they are expected to be prepared for them.

I'll tell you my 2 interactions. One in Bobcageon, a group ride (TTSR) was leaving a fuel stop and headed to Fenlon. One of the group rolled a stop in front of an OPP, they lit up and he bolted (dirty bugger). They chased for a bit then turned around and stopped the group of 15 riders. For an hour. After we left, they followed to Fenlon, where after lunch they again checked the group for an hour - sobriety, licences and insurance again for several riders - another hour.

Another time I lost track of speed on a stretch of the 507, a group of 6 were travelling together. The nice blond lady OPP officer picked us up going a little too fast, flicked on the cherries and we all pulled over. She said she was eating a hamburger when we passed her so she couldn't see or remember which bikes were 1, 2 and 3. Se went on to say if if we cooperated by telling her who was running 1, 2 & 3 she would drop the charges to 129 in an 80 zone. I started looking for a "Just for Laughs" camera.
 
Mad Mike said:
Another time I lost track of speed on a stretch of the 507, a group of 6 were travelling together. The nice blond lady OPP officer picked us up going a little too fast, flicked on the cherries and we all pulled over. She said she was eating a hamburger when we passed her so she couldn't see or remember which bikes were 1, 2 and 3. Se went on to say if if we cooperated by telling her who was running 1, 2 & 3 she would drop the charges to 129 in an 80 zone. I started looking for a "Just for Laughs" camera.
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I'm generally not doing things that would get me pulled over in the first place (anymore)... but on one of my many bad days I would be the guy who says out loud "So if we don't say anything you can't charge us at all" before you could kick me
 
TwistedKestrel said:
Having established a little distance would greatly mitigate either problem
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The police knew he had the kid.
This started in Bobcaygeon when his wife ran from the family home to a neighbours house. (The neighbour had recently moved to Bobcaygeon; Welcome to the neighbourhood!.)
It was originally reported she was accompanied by another woman, reported as either HER mother or a therapist.
The neighbour called 911, the wife talked to the police and told them he had the boy and an illegal handgun and gave a description of the truck.
The police quickly located the truck southbound on Sturgeon Rd
This much has been reported.
Also reported; the OPP left the wife at the neighbour's house and told her nothing for 4 hours. 3 1/2 hrs after they knew her boy was dead and husband gravely injured.
After that it is all speculation.

The OPP could have "backed off" or given the guy space
The guy had JUST kidnapped a child and had a gun. He was not acting logically. He was seemingly out of control.
The police HAD to keep eyes on the guy.
If they had "backed off" and the guy "murder suicided" the kid you'd all be screaming blue murder
If they "backed off" the guy could have done something SUPREMELY stupid and dangerous... like I dunno... get into a high speed police chase, try to kill a cop and get into losing shoot out?
People in control don't do stuff like that.
I would think you could see that this is text book case of why you would NOT 'back off" and do your best to contain the situation.
It seems to me that the OPP thought the guy was going to stop when they boxed him in.
They had him south bound on Sturgeon. With 3 road blocks, one on Sturgeon south of Pigeon Lake Rd and both ways on Pigeon Lake rd, they had him blocked in. He had no where to go. Everything in the cop's collective experience says they had the guy contained. When they get him contained, they can can work on de-escalating the situation.
The guy could have come upon the roadblock and stop and try to negotiate, BUT he choose to ram the road block and in SIU terms "USED THE VEHICLE AS A WEAPON". All the police training in the world ain't gonna change that. Police work can be messy and unpredictable.
It wasn't the police that escalated... this time.
I seems to me the guy turned onto Pigeon Lake Rd. to find a OPP car blocking the road, probably with cop "A" holding his hand up saying "HALT POLICE". (they should stop doing that. Remember the TO cop that got cut down by a guy in a snow plow. )... but then maybe cop "A" was thinking that the guy had a kid in the truck with him, he recogocnises this the end... WTF??? HE'S TRYING TO RUN ME DOWN!
The SIU reported the cop was hurt by the truck, he wasn't shot, but if cop "A" thinks the guy is trying to kill him with his truck; it's a valid shoot.
now, why the OTHER two shot is a good question.
In my time line those two would be chasing the truck south on Sturgeon Rd or at another road block, we don't know how far back, and came across the suspect truck, smashed into a cruiser with injured cop "A" unloading his glock into the truck.
If they were right( a second or two) behind the truck all they would know is what they have heard on the radio, BLACK TRUCK KID GUN, and coming upon a VERY dynamic scene, seeing cop "A" shoot, it would be easy to justify them shooting too.
I am not saying this situation couldn't have been handled differently, with what may have been a better outcome for all involved but the way I see it; it wasn't the OPP that wrote this story's plotline.
 
After they pumped him full of lead they should have tazed him a couple times to make sure he stayed down. Send them all to Toronto for further training.
 
If the child was killed by the OPP it is all on them. Yes we are all Monday morning QBs....

Learn to control the firearm you have been issued?
Avoid the direct confrontation they instigated knowing that there is a baby in the truck?
Too bad they can't be forced to have a drug tests?
So on and so forth.... all legit questions.

The tough part, career ticket writers forced to respond to a tough situation, likely adrenaline levels they are not at all acclimatized to. Training (hostage etc.) if they had any at all was likely lacking and years old.

If the father killed the child, the question then, did the OPP officers escalate the situation contributing to the tragedy?
 
Alot of armchair quarterbacks here, who have never walked a day in a cops shoes ..

Oh i would of done this, or i would of done that .. ********.
Go back to your google law degrees.
I live in the area and know one of the cops that just got released from the hospital.

He has his own family that he has to go home to over this call. (luckily)
 
infernobuster said:
Alot of armchair quarterbacks here, who have never walked a day in a cops shoes ..

Oh i would of done this, or i would of done that .. ********.
Go back to your google law degrees.
I live in the area and know one of the cops that just got released from the hospital.

He has his own family that he has to go home to over this call. (luckily)
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Totally agree! Police have a very high suicide rate for a reason. I was a wreck being close to a nasty pickup/motorcycle fatality outside where i worked a few years ago. Pickup ran a stop sign and ran right over a guy on a cruiser.
Unreal how the police handle this kind of stuff. They asked me a few times if i was ok to ride home. Very compassionate. And dealing with someone who just took someone's life in the next breath.
Imagine being the police that showed up at the Mario Muzzo accident scene, having to look inside at the mangled bodies and then act professional and NOT beat the piss out of the guy. Then go home to your little family unit.
 
Not much to disagree with on either side of this discussion. I am wondering why we have heard zero after 2 weeks. I would imagine the situation was and sequence of events was mapped out in 1 day, why the silence?

If this did not involve police, we would know in 1-2 days if charges were going to be laid.
 
The one year child will never go home and the mother will never hold her child. A police officer is severely injured. The public has every right to be critical. Where is the OPP? Where is the SIU?
 
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