Bill 70 threatens trades

[Baggsy]

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@ Baggsy I can rhyme off the imperial equivalent to metric or reverse in linear measurement up 1500mm. All our prints are in metric.

All my tape measures are in Imperial, except for a couple with both. It'd be interesting to see what they've done with 2x4's and 10' ceilings then with materials. The old stuff tends to rely upon a 4' measurement (121.92 cm).

 

[inreb]

All my tape measures are in Imperial, except for a couple with both. It'd be interesting to see what they've done with 2x4's and 10' ceilings then with materials. The old stuff tends to rely upon a 4' measurement (121.92 cm).

OK, this is odd. I had 4' at 1200mm. I don't understand this discrepancy.

 

[nobbie48]

All my tape measures are in Imperial, except for a couple with both. It'd be interesting to see what they've done with 2x4's and 10' ceilings then with materials. The old stuff tends to rely upon a 4' measurement (121.92 cm).

Anyone remember metric plywood, just a bit bigger than 4 X 8 sheets?

Wouldn't fit flat in lot of pickups. Take it home and trim it to 4 X 8. PITA.

Now it's just metric thickness.

The old modular was IIRC based on 8 inches. 8, 16, 24 inch spacing, 3 bricks + mortar = 8 inches etc.

 

[LPakkala]

Does that mean that they're only grunt labour until they're certified, or do they actually get to learn the job before they become journeymen? I've seen many mechanicals come in an cut ceiling hangars to put in pipes, ducts, electrical, after they were supposed to be done. I've also seen carpenters laminating drywall onto concrete pound a conduit flat instead of furring out around it. Not to mention jouneymen who would finish what they were told to do, and then stare out the window until the foreman came back, instead of being able to read and follow the drawings.

Oh they definitely learn on the job, and I make sure that my apprentices are exposed to as much as possible before they head back to school for the next level of training. It helps to have some hands-on experience to go with the in-class learning. It aids in retention. But I do not let them get in too deep over their head, until I am convinced that they will be able to intelligently work their way through the problems. Once a technician becomes a journeyperson, I expect them to be able to competently complete everything in the book their supervisor had to sign off for them to write the exam. Most can't, and more independent learning is required, which also happens on the job. Lots of apprentices do no more than change tires and oil. I personally take a different approach to apprentice learning.

I agree that there is a wide variety of work ethics which seem to be independent of what qualifications a worker has.

 

[meester_jamie]

The legality issue in so many cases is ridiculous. An upholsterer can't unplug and remove a lighted sun visor from a car unless he is a licensed mechanic. Fine $10K to the shop.

Wow,,, I just can't believe what strange things are happening....... so you're saying the upholsterer shop needs to get their guys more training / licensing...

When I had my shop the unit next door blew their main transformer and out of curiosity I took a look. It was 600/300 3 phase. They had been running their 208 volt stuff on 300. I met their electrician later and he told me how well trained he was. Back home he took the two week course not the quick three day one.

Was your shop in Canada? you probably meant to write ,typo?, 600/347 ... instead of 300.. and 208 equip doesn't last very long on 600 Volt... remember,, the 208 is line to line.. as the 600 is also line to line... so any 208 stuff would be connected 600.. and the 120 would be connected to the 347...... it SMOKES in a big hurry!
happens somewhat frequently .. as trained licensed people don't seem to know the 550 , 575, 418, 208 220 240 .. it seems all the same to them three phase right...

The classic is when a guy buys a replacement duplex receptacle at Home Depot and installs it carefully putting every wire in the same place as the old one. Easy Peasy. When he turns the breaker back on it immediately trips.

The old split receptacle trick!

but here is a story for you..... licensed electrician.. doing homes for years... picks up a couple 208/3 phase jobs... runs his circuits 2 hots per neutral.. and a ground ... so the 1" emt conduit with 9 hot, 5 neut, 5 bond conductor was confoooosing to me .. tillI realized where his training was from
then I saw beautiful wiring in the main.. red wires.. black wires.. blue wires.. white ... into the splitter.. then 3 disconnect wired in.. for 3 machines.. so he put 3 red wires in first disconnect... 3 black wires in the second disconnect.. then 3 blue wires in the last disconnect..... ,,, it looked really good.... ! His supervisor missed it.. ESA missed it...

 

[Baggsy]

I worked once renovating half of a duplex. Electrician cut the power, and then got zapped off a ladder by 220.
Plumber turned off the water and the place flooded when he cut a pipe. We had to break down the door to the other half so that they could turn off the power and water. Two separate meters and two separate panels, but no one noticed that the lines were crossed.

 

[PrivatePilot]

Hey, I could probably park trucks for some people too, although I respect those who can do it well.

Fair argument, but I've seen the results of that - they're called shunt drivers - often guys who don't have an actual class A licence but of course on private property, don't need one. They smash up stuff, ramming trailers into the sides of other trailers while backing into tight spots, cutting corners short and scraping trailers down bollards. I've seen it all.

So yes, kind of like the handyman on Kijiji who claims he can do things a tradesperson would normally do, he/she might very well get the job done in the end, but with potential collateral damage.

From what I've witnessed, the OCT is an enforcement body.

For the more serious trades like welders, electricians, etc...they act as a training and education validation body as well, no? So, Bubba shows up at an employer claiming he knows all sorts of specialized welding techniques which are essential to the job (but doesn't actually have them), it seems to me that without the relevant certificates from the OCT he'd be busted in the end and not get the job he's actually unfit to perform.

 

[nobbie48]

Wow,,, I just can't believe what strange things are happening....... so you're saying the upholsterer shop needs to get their guys more training / licensing...



Was your shop in Canada? you probably meant to write ,typo?, 600/347 ... instead of 300.. and 208 equip doesn't last very long on 600 Volt... remember,, the 208 is line to line.. as the 600 is also line to line... so any 208 stuff would be connected 600.. and the 120 would be connected to the 347...... it SMOKES in a big hurry!
happens somewhat frequently .. as trained licensed people don't seem to know the 550 , 575, 418, 208 220 240 .. it seems all the same to them three phase right...



The old split receptacle trick!

but here is a story for you..... licensed electrician.. doing homes for years... picks up a couple 208/3 phase jobs... runs his circuits 2 hots per neutral.. and a ground ... so the 1" emt conduit with 9 hot, 5 neut, 5 bond conductor was confoooosing to me .. tillI realized where his training was from
then I saw beautiful wiring in the main.. red wires.. black wires.. blue wires.. white ... into the splitter.. then 3 disconnect wired in.. for 3 machines.. so he put 3 red wires in first disconnect... 3 black wires in the second disconnect.. then 3 blue wires in the last disconnect..... ,,, it looked really good.... ! His supervisor missed it.. ESA missed it...

The upholsterer was working for a GM dealership doing minor rip repair etc. He couldn't R&R very much because of heated seats, power seats, power windows etc. There was a certificate he could get, short of a mechanic's license but no school offered training for it.

My shop was in BRAMPTON (Hint) and the Tx was 600/300. I have no idea where it came from.

The "Little bit of knowledge" danger: A neighbour was an electronics techie and wired up a shop in his garage. Come winter he complained his fluorescent lights wouldn't fire up.

30 amp disconnect at the panel wired to 120 volts

16/2 cabtire buried under the garden to the garage

two 1500 watt baseboard heaters

He also was trying to wire his rec room with lamp cord.

His training was repairing hospital equipment.

 

[Slick_Steveo]

For the more serious trades like welders, electricians, etc...they act as a training and education validation body as well, no? So, Bubba shows up at an employer claiming he knows all sorts of specialized welding techniques which are essential to the job (but doesn't actually have them), it seems to me that without the relevant certificates from the OCT he'd be busted in the end and not get the job he's actually unfit to perform.

The CWB certifies the welders. The company (or subcontractor, in our case) must also be certified by CWB and have a copy of their procedures available to inspector of engineer. Personally, I usually ask for welding tickets and procedures during jobsite orientation.

Yes, there are people that try and say they are something they are not, A guy claiming to be a welder won't last very long if he can't do his job. But its like anything, owners want fast and good, sometimes both don't coincide. I've seen guys that are licsened electricians that can't run conduit to save their lives, but yet, have seen some 2nd yr apprentices do 500' ft a day c/w bends and boxes.

To answer your question,as far as I know,the OCT has nothing to do with training and certifiying trades.

My most recent experience with them.....young lady showed up at my trailer wanting to see everyone's "cards".... 40 guys on site....I said no,will not shut down my jobsite for you or any one else.I informed her that there are only a few of the compulsory trades and that I would take her to see those guys only.They all had their cards except for one hvac guy.Turns out that her visit was soley aimed at the one guy ......,pretty sad way of doing business if you ask me....,cause havoc with a whole bunch of ppl .....misrepresent yourself just to weed out one fricken guy ....,I am not impressed

 

[Neil_V]

To answer your question,as far as I know,the OCT has nothing to do with training and certifiying trades.

The OCT is just an all overseeing regulatory monster. You still go to a collage for theoretical training; complete an apprenticeship for practical training; and write a CofQ exam with the ministry of Collages and Trades.... just like you always have. Then you pay the OCT so you can go to work.

 

[inreb]

OCoT has an office on Bay St. Sq. footage doesn't come cheap down there but they need to be where the action is.

 

[nobbie48]

Scenario: A labourer mounting electrical panel boards and their associated distribution systems is given a notice of contravention by the College. The OLRB can determine the person does not have a Certificate and is doing work within scope of electrician (breaking the law) but now the OLRB can rescind the College's notice of contravention if they don't see any visible risk to that particular task.

On the other hand.......

A Contractor buddy was just informed by ESA that, technically speaking, if he drilled a hole in a wall for a conduit and clean up was part of his contract he couldn't use a labourer to sweep the floor because it fell under the scope of his electrical work. A general contractor could use a general labourer.

Is there any common sense anywhere?

 

[Slick_Steveo]

On the other hand.......

A Contractor buddy was just informed by ESA that, technically speaking, if he drilled a hole in a wall for a conduit and clean up was part of his contract he couldn't use a labourer to sweep the floor because it fell under the scope of his electrical work. A general contractor could use a general labourer.

Is there any common sense anywhere?

ESA is just there to inspect electrical installations. They don't care who cleans up after the electricians. Are you sure it wasn't the IBEW that told him that.

FYI most of the inside construction trades (electricians,Hvac,plumbers etc) barely clean up after themselves, contract or not. Especially when they know the general has labourers who work for them.

 

[Baggsy]

Fair argument, but I've seen the results of that - they're called shunt drivers - often guys who don't have an actual class A licence but of course on private property, don't need one. They smash up stuff, ramming trailers into the sides of other trailers while backing into tight spots, cutting corners short and scraping trailers down bollards. I've seen it all. So yes, kind of like the handyman on Kijiji who claims he can do things a tradesperson would normally do, he/she might very well get the job done in the end, but with potential collateral damage. For the more serious trades like welders, electricians, etc...they act as a training and education validation body as well, no? So, Bubba shows up at an employer claiming he knows all sorts of specialized welding techniques which are essential to the job (but doesn't actually have them), it seems to me that without the relevant certificates from the OCT he'd be busted in the end and not get the job he's actually unfit to perform.

Which are the less serious trades?

 

[Skully]

This thread is hilarious, its obvious whos a tradesman and who just has nothing to do and feels compelled to post for shigs and gittles.

 

[nobbie48]

What is the status of the bill?

 

[JamJam]

Meh, it's mostly grade 9 & a little grade 10 math. Fractions, addition, subtraction. 3,4,5 principle. In imperial units. Metric hasn't come to some trades yet, and may never do so.

Baggsy, All my contract drawings and specs for a job site are in Metric

All my tape measures are in Imperial, except for a couple with both. It'd be interesting to see what they've done with 2x4's and 10' ceilings then with materials. The old stuff tends to rely upon a 4' measurement (121.92 cm).

Funny enough Most of my material is ordered in imperial except wire/cables lengths and flexible conduit lengths.... conduit is all done in imperial 1/2", 3/4",2" etc when ordering it and talking to people about it but the drawings list/show it in metric 16mm, 21mm, 53mm etc... they all come in 10' lengths..... Although we did find out recently that you can get unistrut in 10' lengths and 3m lengths... my company thought they were saving money lol

but here is a story for you..... licensed electrician.. doing homes for years... picks up a couple 208/3 phase jobs... runs his circuits 2 hots per neutral.. and a ground ... so the 1" emt conduit with 9 hot, 5 neut, 5 bond conductor was confoooosing to me .. tillI realized where his training was from
then I saw beautiful wiring in the main.. red wires.. black wires.. blue wires.. white ... into the splitter.. then 3 disconnect wired in.. for 3 machines.. so he put 3 red wires in first disconnect... 3 black wires in the second disconnect.. then 3 blue wires in the last disconnect..... ,,, it looked really good.... ! His supervisor missed it.. ESA missed it...

Seen this before .... I also love the guys working 3 phase that like to run all the neutrals in one conduit and all the hots in another conduit to keep it "cleaner" when they bundle them together in the panel lol..... and yes I have seen ESA miss that on more than one occasion

I've seen guys that are licsened electricians that can't run conduit to save their lives, but yet, have seen some 2nd yr apprentices do 500' ft a day c/w bends and boxes.

The problem is that a lot of electrical companies have their own niche in the market and don't stray out of it... Example... high-rise/condo electricians.... they all use coreline (flexible plastic conduit that looks like a shop-vac hose) and don't need to learn how to bend pipe because they are never exposed to it... I remember as a 3rd term apprentice teaching a journeyman of 20 years how to bend conduit because he only ever worked high-rise. Or residential electricians that have never seen or dealt with 3-phase or motor controls....

On the other hand.......

A Contractor buddy was just informed by ESA that, technically speaking, if he drilled a hole in a wall for a conduit and clean up was part of his contract he couldn't use a labourer to sweep the floor because it fell under the scope of his electrical work. A general contractor could use a general labourer.

Is there any common sense anywhere?

That wouldn't be ESA.... probably some IBEW guy.... I am one and I can tell you we do have some special ones

FYI most of the inside construction trades (electricians,Hvac,plumbers etc) barely clean up after themselves, contract or not. Especially when they know the general has labourers who work for them.

Yeh most big sites we just need to keep garbage in a neat pile near our work area and the GC labourers will come by and clean up

 

[JamJam]

What is the status of the bill?

It was given Royal assent on Dec. 8th.... so my understanding is yes it passed and will become law... i think

 

[Baggsy]

Baggsy, All my contract drawings and specs for a job site are in Metric Funny enough Most of my material is ordered in imperial except wire/cables lengths and flexible conduit lengths.... conduit is all done in imperial 1/2", 3/4",2" etc when ordering it and talking to people about it but the drawings list/show it in metric 16mm, 21mm, 53mm etc... they all come in 10' lengths..... Although we did find out recently that you can get unistrut in 10' lengths and 3m lengths... my company thought they were saving money lol Seen this before .... I also love the guys working 3 phase that like to run all the neutrals in one conduit and all the hots in another conduit to keep it "cleaner" when they bundle them together in the panel lol..... and yes I have seen ESA miss that on more than one occasion The problem is that a lot of electrical companies have their own niche in the market and don't stray out of it... Example... high-rise/condo electricians.... they all use coreline (flexible plastic conduit that looks like a shop-vac hose) and don't need to learn how to bend pipe because they are never exposed to it... I remember as a 3rd term apprentice teaching a journeyman of 20 years how to bend conduit because he only ever worked high-rise. Or residential electricians that have never seen or dealt with 3-phase or motor controls.... That wouldn't be ESA.... probably some IBEW guy.... I am one and I can tell you we do have some special ones Yeh most big sites we just need to keep garbage in a neat pile near our work area and the GC labourers will come by and clean up

o.k. I apprenticed way back in the late 70's early 80's. although I'd been working summers since I was 10 or so. It doesn't surprise me that the drawings would change to metric, although I'm not sure how they designate ceiling height then, it might be weird. Conduit was used back then on commercial buildings, I remember two lunkheads pounding one flat on a middle floor at the Atrium on Bay; I'm not sure about now, or even 20 years ago. I got out not too long after, and went into computer programming instead. Doesn't look like any of my ceilings have come crashing down yet anyways.

 

[nobbie48]

It was given Royal assent on Dec. 8th.... so my understanding is yes it passed and will become law... i think

Great. I've always wanted to be a dentist. Off to Princess Auto to pick up some tools.

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