I don't think drywallers and flooring installers are under the umbrella of the College........ yet.
I'm sure someone, somewhere, is figuring out how to charge those folks licensing, training and regulation fees too.
Bill 70 threatens trades
- Thread starter daught
- Start date
I don't think drywallers and flooring installers are under the umbrella of the College........ yet.
I'm sure someone, somewhere, is figuring out how to charge those folks licensing, training and regulation fees too.
Interestingly, hair dressers are; and a compulsory trade as well, which means they also pay the 120/year tax to be legal.... plus HST.
Obviously not, but you are really not answering my question. Or are you suggesting the government wants me to have an option to hire someone without a license to install a gas fireplace?
Now, I will feel much safer in the chair ... crazy.
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Well, d'uh! Follow the money. Safety is like political correctness. See follow the money.
dieselxx
Well-known member
Not all of us tradesman are unionized people. I have been an electrician for 10+ years of non union and will continue that way. I'm not 100% sure where the Libs are going with this or what the real mandate is. Ya sure I would love a laborer running conduit and pulling wires for me all day while I just do connections, but isn't that what we just call a registered electrical apprentice anyway? I know thats what I did as an apprentice all the while going to school and learning and learning off others. I would never trust a regular laborer to do those things. That would just cost more as they will most likely F*** everything up anyway. Realistically who is going to keep an eye out anyway? I have seen plenty on non electricians run pvc conduit underground on many job sites, probably against code too.
Either way, the college of trades hasn't done squat for me like said above, other than raise the fee.
Plus I can't protest because I work for government making peanuts lol
Either way, the college of trades hasn't done squat for me like said above, other than raise the fee.
Plus I can't protest because I work for government making peanuts lol
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I agree with the above tradespeople that the College of Trades has not really done anything beneficial to me. Here is the link to the bill.. section 17 is the one of importance here.
http://www.ontla.on.ca/web/bills/bills_detail.do?locale=en&BillID=4376#BK19
The complaints raised in the "article" seems to cite a few tradespeople and union reps who have not actually read the bill, which is unfortunate. Or if they did, they cherry picked the parts they thought could make headlines. The bill does not state that it will allow unskilled or unqualified workers from working in restricted trades. It's does state that if you as a worker receive a notice of contravention of sections 2 or 4 of the Ontario College of Trades and Apprenticeship Act, 2009, then you have the right to request a review by the Ontario Labour Relations Board. They in turn may uphold the notice, or overturn it based on their review. I can't see how this would "degrade the safety of my worksite". It doesn't change the requirements for compulsory trades or the oversight associated with those trades.
Here is the link for the Ontario College of Trades and Apprenticeship Act, 2009.
https://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/09o22
http://www.ontla.on.ca/web/bills/bills_detail.do?locale=en&BillID=4376#BK19
The complaints raised in the "article" seems to cite a few tradespeople and union reps who have not actually read the bill, which is unfortunate. Or if they did, they cherry picked the parts they thought could make headlines. The bill does not state that it will allow unskilled or unqualified workers from working in restricted trades. It's does state that if you as a worker receive a notice of contravention of sections 2 or 4 of the Ontario College of Trades and Apprenticeship Act, 2009, then you have the right to request a review by the Ontario Labour Relations Board. They in turn may uphold the notice, or overturn it based on their review. I can't see how this would "degrade the safety of my worksite". It doesn't change the requirements for compulsory trades or the oversight associated with those trades.
Here is the link for the Ontario College of Trades and Apprenticeship Act, 2009.
https://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/09o22
SCHEDULE 17
ONTARIO COLLEGE OF TRADES AND APPRENTICESHIP ACT, 2009The Schedule makes various amendments to the Ontario College of Trades and Apprenticeship Act, 2009. The significant amendments are as follows:
1. The College of Trades Appointments Council is continued as the College of Trades Appointments Council and Classification Roster. The modified body has two branches, the Appointments Council and the Classification Roster. The branch known as the Appointments Council has the same duties as the current College of Trades Appointments Council. The main duty of the branch known as the Classification Roster is to determine matters relating to the classification or reclassification of trades as voluntary or compulsory. This function is currently performed by review panels established by the Ontario College of Trades.
2. The Schedule also provides that a classification panel may determine which practices within the scope of practice for a compulsory trade should constitute engaging in the practice of the trade for the purposes of enforcing sections 2 and 4 of the Act. 3. The Schedule includes provisions setting out how trades may be referred to a classification panel, the procedures that apply upon a referral and addresses other related matters.
4. A new Part is added to the Act providing for the issuance of notices of contravention requiring a person to pay an administrative penalty. The Part sets out factors that must be considered before a notice of contravention may be issued, such as the risk of harm to the public and other persons, and the scopes of practice of relevant trades. A person who receives a notice of contravention may apply for a review of the notice by the Ontario Labour Relations Board. Provisions are included regarding the conduct of a review and the enforcement of an administrative penalty.
5. The Schedule includes a provision that requires that the Ontario College of Trades establish a compliance and enforcement policy and a Compliance and Enforcement Committee to advise the Board on addressing compliance and enforcement issues in respect of matters within the jurisdiction of the College.
6. Related regulation-making powers are added or amended.
ONTARIO COLLEGE OF TRADES AND APPRENTICESHIP ACT, 2009The Schedule makes various amendments to the Ontario College of Trades and Apprenticeship Act, 2009. The significant amendments are as follows:
1. The College of Trades Appointments Council is continued as the College of Trades Appointments Council and Classification Roster. The modified body has two branches, the Appointments Council and the Classification Roster. The branch known as the Appointments Council has the same duties as the current College of Trades Appointments Council. The main duty of the branch known as the Classification Roster is to determine matters relating to the classification or reclassification of trades as voluntary or compulsory. This function is currently performed by review panels established by the Ontario College of Trades.
2. The Schedule also provides that a classification panel may determine which practices within the scope of practice for a compulsory trade should constitute engaging in the practice of the trade for the purposes of enforcing sections 2 and 4 of the Act. 3. The Schedule includes provisions setting out how trades may be referred to a classification panel, the procedures that apply upon a referral and addresses other related matters.
4. A new Part is added to the Act providing for the issuance of notices of contravention requiring a person to pay an administrative penalty. The Part sets out factors that must be considered before a notice of contravention may be issued, such as the risk of harm to the public and other persons, and the scopes of practice of relevant trades. A person who receives a notice of contravention may apply for a review of the notice by the Ontario Labour Relations Board. Provisions are included regarding the conduct of a review and the enforcement of an administrative penalty.
5. The Schedule includes a provision that requires that the Ontario College of Trades establish a compliance and enforcement policy and a Compliance and Enforcement Committee to advise the Board on addressing compliance and enforcement issues in respect of matters within the jurisdiction of the College.
6. Related regulation-making powers are added or amended.
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Roadghost
Well-known member
I can only say that letting the Ontario Labour Relations Board enforce anything is like having no enforcement at all.
The idea that I could have a wooden house with wiring done by someone without adequate training is disturbing. Likewise with plumbing, natural gas fittings, and automotive work.
To be fair the reason I do all my own automotive work is because of the downright sloppy and dangerous work I have received from licensed mechanics. But think of the alternative with someone who is poorly trained, can't speak English and works through an agency for $14/hr. doing trade work. No thanks. I'd rather pay the price and get a safe job with legal recourse if something happens.
The idea that I could have a wooden house with wiring done by someone without adequate training is disturbing. Likewise with plumbing, natural gas fittings, and automotive work.
To be fair the reason I do all my own automotive work is because of the downright sloppy and dangerous work I have received from licensed mechanics. But think of the alternative with someone who is poorly trained, can't speak English and works through an agency for $14/hr. doing trade work. No thanks. I'd rather pay the price and get a safe job with legal recourse if something happens.
They can't any more than they could before. Still compulsory trade... still enforced. Read the amendments. None of the concerns you brought up have anything to do with the changes.
A buddy just put down a bunch of heating cables for a heated driveway. The next day the paving guy cut through all of them trimming the soldier course for the stones.
A general contractor in Whitby just got nailed for doing the conduit install.
A lot of floor warming cables are installed by the tile trades with hook-up by the electricians. ESA likes it because both have to pull permits but why would a responsible electrician hook up and take responsibility for something he / she didn't install and can't see?
In one floor warming system checkout for an owner I found ten code violations in one room.
How does one manages to have 10 violations on a floor warming system??? Seriously, I get that to install a new electrical box is not DIY ... but floor warming kit?? They are so dead easy nowadays, even if you follow the code to the letter ... LOL
I think it's you that s not understanding what you're reading...
The OLRB will be able to change what is considered compulsory or voluntary trade work... See number 2 in my post above.
2. The Schedule also provides that a classification panel may determine which practices within the scope of practice for a compulsory trade should constitute engaging in the practice of the trade for the purposes of enforcing sections 2 and 4 of the Act. 3. The Schedule includes provisions setting out how trades may be referred to a classification panel, the procedures that apply upon a referral and addresses other related matters.
The cable was damaged
The cable was too large for the job
The cable ran into a closet
Cable spacing was uneven
Cable splice wasn't embedded
Cable was exposed in places
Cable was not identified, tag was missing
I forget the rest
I checked out another failure for a flooring contractor and something wasn't right but only the homeowner was there so I deferred discussions until I could talk to the contractor alone so as to avoid embarrassing him.
When I called the installer he insisted that the job must have been right because he read the instructions over several times. He said he still had the instructions in the box with the other half of the cable. I asked him to read item 3 of the instructions.
Item 3) Do not cut the cable...................duh
I have pictures of heavy appliances parked on top of cables
You staple over the cables not through them
An old guy in Niagara on the Lake died from burns sustained from a system hooked up to the wrong voltage and with improper controls.
A large job was going to need several controllers which also perform the GFI function. To save money one controller was used and a contactor handled the load. The only thing being protected by GFI was the coil of the contactor.
How do you tile a heated floor?
Step 1) Walk on cables to get to far end of room and drop boxes of tiles on sensitive cables
Step 2) Go back for buckets of thinset and repeat step 1
Step 3) Lay some tile and repeat steps 1 and 2
Optional: Smack trowels on floor to clean them
Step 4) Slash deeply through tile joints with razor knife to remove excess thinset
Once the floor is completed trades are free to drill for cabinetry installs, plumbing supply lines, drains, door stops, etc.
Anyone can do it. It's a kit. Just read the instructions (if the boss gives you the time).
I understand just fine. But seeing as there will be 10 diverse members in the classification panel, it seems unlikely that the changes the two people quoted in the CBC article were concerned about would ever come to fruition. I do think that there should be consultation within an industry if changes are to be made, and it doesn't specifically state that there would be, which bothers me. As it stands right now, the system to decide what a compulsory trade is, is flawed. Hairdressers... no. Marine Mechanics... yes, and it's not. Silly in my opinion. If they address discrepancies such as these, I am for it. I do not think that they would bother with any of the trades that are up in arms about the amendment: plumbers, electricians, motive power, etc.
Here is the classification panel info:
Composition 63.2 (1) The Classification Roster shall be composed of an associate chair and at least 10 other members appointed by the Lieutenant Governor in Council as follows:
1. The associate chair and at least six other members shall be appointed as representing the public.
2. At least four members shall be appointed from the roster of adjudicators.
Qualification (2) An individual may not be appointed as a member under paragraph 1 of subsection (1) if he or she,
(a) is a member of the College;
(b) was a member of the College within the preceding year;
(c) works or engages in the practice of a voluntary trade;
(d) worked or was engaged in the practice of a voluntary trade within the preceding year;
(e) has or had an affiliation with a member of the College or with a compulsory trade or a voluntary trade that may bias their decisions;
(f) is or was a member of the governing structure of the College;
(g) is or was a member of the Appointments Council or the old Appointments Council; and
(h) satisfies any other condition prescribed by a Minister’s regulation.
And then immediately below that:
Scope of practice 63.3 (1) The Board shall prescribe a scope of practice for every trade prescribed by a Minister’s regulation as a trade for the purposes of this Act.Same (2) A particular practice may be included in more than one trade’s scope of practice.
Policy (3) The Board shall develop a policy regarding the establishment and review of scopes of practice for trades.Process, etc. (4) The policy referred to in subsection (3) shall include, (a) a process for the establishment and review of scopes of practice; and (b) provisions relating to building consensus among relevant divisional boards and trade boards in establishing and reviewing scopes of practice.
Available to public (5) The policy referred to in subsection (3) shall be available for public inspection during normal business hours in the office of the College and be posted on the College’s website or made available through a hyperlink at the College’s website.
I underlined the policy and process section because that is where it addresses the concerns of the tradespeople and college of trades from being cut out of the process of deciding what is compulsory and what is not.
Oh really? This was by a licensed electrician. http://news.nationalpost.com/news/c...enior-burns-to-death-on-heated-bathroom-floor
Exactly. Those "jack of all trades" guys are great...until you end up with a gas or carbon monoxide leak, or the polarity is reversed on an electrical plug and your toaster is a deathtrap, or you end up with plumbing that won't drain, or a shower that leaks and turns your house into a black mold disaster, or that structural beam holding up your foundation lets go because of a ****** weld and your house is condemned.
It's easy to continue. Anyone here ever watched a Mike Holmes show? THAT'S what happens when jobs that are supposed to be done by trained professionals get done by idiots who "kinda know what they're doing" instead.
Come on... tradespeople have training for a reason, many of them college of university education at that. My son is a year 1 welder for example (after a year of college) and he needed formal training (even beyond that 1 year) and certification before he was allowed to start doing what he's doing since he's working on structural members now.
Would you want some wannabe who had no formal training but can run a pretty looking (but quite likely very structurally weak) bead of weld building the officer or apartment tower you visit or live in?
It wasn't that long ago that someone posted a horror story here about how they'd went to a motorcycle repair place they'd found on Kijiji and it didn't end well - another great example of the benefits of a proper mechanic vs "backyard wannabe".\
Leave the union rhetoric out of this...a lot (most?) tradespeople don't even belong to one.
The Dog the Bounty Hunter of renovations. Anyways, 30-35 or more years ago, I did a course at George Brown for local 675, but back then there were guys, some unqualified, who signed onto the union as journeymen. There were also different pay systems going on, and some of the people in my course, couldn't take a measurement or add two fractions together. It was an interesting time. At least nothing I built has fallen down yet. 
matt365
Well-known member
Funny you talk about Holmes...
Seen him do stuff in his show that you aren't supposed to do.
He started running crews when he was 19, unlicensed and untrained. Hired licensed guys though (apparently).
From what I have been told, he never had any formal tradeschool training. I think he challenged the test later in life.
There can be crappy licensed tradespeople, and decent unlicensed.
I'm a licensed carpenter in a non-mandatory licensed trade. I know guys that just put their name on a truck, started quoting jobs, and called themselves carpenters with no formal training. Some are total hacks.
