Are Unions done?

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Would you like me to apologize again?

I want an appology too, you hurt my feelings...

I'll agree my rant was less specific, i do think that the workers needed to take a slight pay cut.
35$hr is a bit steep, but alot of companies rarely give the employees what they deserve, or pay bonuses when they have a profitable year.

I'm more ****** off at the gov for helping them out, without having done some kind of long term forecast, i find it hard to believe things changed drastically enough in the last months to force their hand.
In any case, the Government or some paid analyst should have seen this coming.

As for Cat, they knew what they were doing, they even held a job fair in Muncie Indiana, so it was planned long ago.

 

[stevie t]

Like it or not, China actually has the labour force expertise on NA in terms of textiles and technology manufacturing, its the 2nd reason why those jobs are not coming back.. Why the hell would you pay more for someone who isn't as skilled? PS. China is no longer the cheapest place to manufacture, but companies stay there why? expertise and direct investment.

Sure, let's bring the Foxconn business model here. Good profitability and an acceptable suicide rate.....

 

[Scuba Steve]

We are in a race to the bottom right now, people will buy whatever is cheapest no matter what it does to jobs locally. Everytime someone buys cheap offshore goods they drive their own wage down. Walmart started this long ago and it will only stop when people realize that they are saving money at the expensense of their job and wages. We will all have 3rd world wages soon enough if we continue this.

 

[OpenGambit]

Sure, let's bring the Foxconn business model here. Good profitability and an acceptable suicide rate.....

What phone do you have?

 

[invictus43]

They're certainly on the back foot..especially in the States..

 

[stevie t]

What phone do you have?

Lawyers, always so adversarial....must be the billable hours thing.

From what I can tell my POS phone is not made by Foxconn, but I have multiple apple products and who knows what circut boards are in my other electronics...

On another, not totally unrealted note, I remember watching a documentary about people who have had epiphanies resulting in major life changes...one guy was an arms dealer...one day he was watching the news and saw the carnage his product was creating, he calculated that he had enought money right then to live the rest of his life if he could live on 5 grand a year, he moved into a tree house somewhere in California and went totally off the grid...if not his mind....unfortunately, I'm not one for climbing....

 

[FiReSTaRT]

Always? It used to be a one-car, one television, and a house with 1200 to 1300 sq ft was the norm.

And that was affordable when many women stayed at home, took care of the house/kids and didn't work, so a lot of times on a single salary. Now, I'd like to go over the turbobudget for a family to afford a 1200-1300sq-ft home in the GTA, a single new car and to raise a couple of kids on $60,000 before taxes combined (husband and wife doing f/t at $15 per hour), house paid off in 20 years or less.

And I'm being generous here by allowing the woman to also work instead of being a housewife the way a much bigger portion of the female population did back in the 70's

 

[OpenGambit]

Lawyers, always so adversarial....must be the billable hours thing.

From what I can tell my POS phone is not made by Foxconn, but I have multiple apple products and who knows what circut boards are in my other electronics...

spare me your hyprocracy if you dont' want a response.

 

[caboose56]

And that was affordable when many women stayed at home, took care of the house/kids and didn't work, so a lot of times on a single salary. Now, I'd like to go over the turbobudget for a family to afford a 1200-1300sq-ft home in the GTA, a single new car and to raise a couple of kids on $60,000 before taxes combined (husband and wife doing f/t at $15 per hour), house paid off in 20 years or less.

And I'm being generous here by allowing the woman to also work instead of being a housewife the way a much bigger portion of the female population did back in the 70's

Who's fault is it that a 1300sq-ft home in the GTA is $500,000 or often more? Other home buyers. If people weren't willing to bury themselves in debt up to their eyeballs they wouldn't be paying such retarded prices for homes.

 

[nobbie48]

+
I don't think that this affects garbage men/landscapers etc as much because they are actually service industries and can't be outsourced. Unioning for these types of services are alive and well.

While these jobs can't at this time be done remotely that doesn't mean they can't be outsourced. Instead of hiring employees, a company gives a contract to a third party, Trashhauler Inc, for a year or two. If the slaves get restless a different company, Trash is Us Inc, gets the next contract. Laid off workers from Trashhauler Inc can apply for a job but the slackers might get weeded out. The same number of jobs but at a minimalistic rate. The workers in contract companies have virtually no leverage.

Another interesting angle. I deal with a company in Trenton that is union but only the plant is union. The office is not.
When the plant went on strike a few years ago the office workers were seriously harrassed as they crossed the picket lines. The plant workers saw them as pro-management but were blind to the fact that the office didn't get the wage and benefit package that the plant did. The office workers wouldn't be getting strike pay and wouldn't get regular pay if they didn't show up at their desks. I don't know if the resentment has ever faded completely.

Is CAT office staff union? Will the office remain as a sales/service/parts centre?

 

[stevie t]

spare me your hyprocracy if you dont' want a response.

Guess I struck a nerve....

 

[nobbie48]

And that was affordable when many women stayed at home, took care of the house/kids and didn't work, so a lot of times on a single salary. Now, I'd like to go over the turbobudget for a family to afford a 1200-1300sq-ft home in the GTA, a single new car and to raise a couple of kids on $60,000 before taxes combined (husband and wife doing f/t at $15 per hour), house paid off in 20 years or less.

And I'm being generous here by allowing the woman to also work instead of being a housewife the way a much bigger portion of the female population did back in the 70's

Did the kids back then have $200 running shoes, $100 jeans?
How much is cable and internet?
How many meals were eaten out of the home?
Could dad fix his own car with a few wrenches?
Could you park for free at the beach/park and have a home made picnic lunch?
Would a kid be happy with a frisbee or hula hoop instead of a Game Boy or similar?
Can you get a 30 year fixed rate mortgage at 5%?

 

[nobbie48]

Who's fault is it that a 1300sq-ft home in the GTA is $500,000 or often more? Other home buyers. If people weren't willing to bury themselves in debt up to their eyeballs they wouldn't be paying such retarded prices for homes.

Talk to immigrants from Hong Kong or Japan and they say "Cheap here, cheap here."

 

[gwelfmike]

What did you expect him to say, " EMD Lost 16 million, our parent company made record profits, so now lets take the technolgy and expertise gained in Canada and move it south where we can exploit the depressed job market there because the State just signed a bill to make it harder for unions to organize and once where done there, we will move our production to a third world country which will be back in Canada if this keeps up."

Jim Dugan, another Cat spokesperson, is quoted saying EMD lost $16 million last year. Your assumption is incorrect.

 

[nobbie48]

And that was affordable when many women stayed at home, took care of the house/kids and didn't work, so a lot of times on a single salary. Now, I'd like to go over the turbobudget for a family to afford a 1200-1300sq-ft home in the GTA, a single new car and to raise a couple of kids on $60,000 before taxes combined (husband and wife doing f/t at $15 per hour), house paid off in 20 years or less.

And I'm being generous here by allowing the woman to also work instead of being a housewife the way a much bigger portion of the female population did back in the 70's

Assume a $400K mortgage and the base cost to end up mortgage free in 20ish years is likely around 50K per year. No car. Take in a roomer to help with groceries. Rent out the empty garage for big bucks. Internet at the library and antenna TV. Don't smoke or drink or eat out ever. Learn to love casseroles. Clip coupons. Get a part time job. Take in a spinster aunt, built in babysitter, maid and source of income.

In essence live like the immigrants we so often poke fun at. You know, the ones that now own the big houses in Vaughan and whose kids are making the six figure incomes.

God help you if your kids are sensitive to schoolyard taunting or interest rates rise or you get sick or Harper pulls another republican stunt.

 

[Brian P]

A lot of the young'uns stay home with their parents a lot longer than I did, too.

 

[FiReSTaRT]

A lot of the young'uns stay home with their parents a lot longer than I did, too.

Have you ever thought about the fact that the boomerang generation might not be doing it by choice? Very few 20-somethings can earn enough to cover rent, unless they're packed like rats into a rented apartment. Even with that, it would take forever and a half to save up for a down-payment on even a cheap condo, unless they want to owe money on it until they retire and then some.

 

[f1mauro]

http://www.windsorstar.com/Succumb+leave+message/6101422/story.html

 

[turbodish]

Very few 20-somethings can earn enough to cover rent, unless they're packed like rats into a rented apartment.

Especially when they don't want to give up the high life, the fancy cars, the nights out on the town, the big screen TVs and the extended cable/satellite TV packages to watch on them, the ATVs and the motorcycles, and on it goes.

 

[daught]

When factory workers (unskilled labor) are getting $25-30/h (3x min wage) and going on strike for more, how does one expect the companies to stay competitive in a global economy. The Unions here just seem to blackmail companies/government. Every week it seems another union is on strike. Manufacturing wont be able to sustain all the demands. In todays economic turmoil $18/h down from $26/h is always better then $0/h. If $18/h is below the workers then im sure there is a line up of other people that would work for that much if not in Canada then in another country.

Any why do we allow this? Outsourcing doesn't profit anyone but the company and shareholders. The ones that don't actually put the work in. Why is it that these days we place so much more value on anything but labor. We can just as easily move the management to China and keep the labor here to maximize profits. Remember while some labor is unskilled, a lot of it requires years of training. Just because I can file my own taxes it doesn't mean I know everything about accounting. Just because you can change a light bulb don't assume you know everything about being an electrician.

Now regarding unions and safety. Unions provide more protection to their workers. In non union land "the right to refuse work" is a myth. We still have a lot of safety concerns these days on construction sites. Unions provide training to identify those dangers, and security to bring those issues up. They are the reason you have less accidents these days. If they disappeared don't you think employers would start pushing individuals to do dangerous things again?

Not all unions have jobs for life or job security. Many skilled trade union members can be laid off without ANY notice or severance. No two week notice or wrongful dismissal. You can be hired and laid off within three hours(slackers definitely don't stay long). There's no seniority in my union either.

BTW I dont support what the city workers are asking for, but I hate it when we all get thrown in the same pot.

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