Anybody tired of the Teacher's Strikes?

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This thread makes my head hurt.

Anywhere you bring up this discussion you’ll get different answers depending on the demographic it’s being presented to.

I would love to see what demographic currently dominates this thread and with which side their opinions align.
 
Slono said:
This thread makes my head hurt.

Anywhere you bring up this discussion you’ll get different answers depending on the demographic it’s being presented to.

I would love to see what demographic currently dominates this thread and with which side their opinions align.
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Demographic is very complicated. What do you think the key factors are? Race, religion, career, age, political leaning, parents, people that look beyond tomorrow, people that look beyond what is best for themselves, participation in a union, etc?
 
IMO the greed in the public sector is based on the delusion that the government has money. The government doesn't have one red cent. Anything they spend comes out of someone else's pocket but the populous thinks otherwise.

I 100% agree with COL increases but if you're doing the same job as last year why should you get more money? I disagree with wage cuts as the victims can't pass those onto their mortgage holder etc.

If the stress burden of unruly kids is the problem why isn't the union fighting for that solution? If a kid is a brat kick the problem up the ladder until it lands in the lap of the minister of education.

A bit off the teacher bit but a buddy used to drive a school bus. Took crap from students, parents and principals all for a minimum wage income. Got cheated on hours as well. He would have had half the stress and twice the money delivering beer instead of precious children.

Better wages don't get you better workers in any business. If you have a needed but disgruntled employee and you give them more money to stay the solution only lasts about six months and they are disgruntled again.

What lifestyle does a particular job deserve? If you want to drop out of school be prepared to live in a basement apartment and drink cheap beer. Do teachers deserve 4000 square foot homes and BMWs?

What's wrong with life in an average house and a Chevy?

Our education system is a disastrous failure in one particular sector, reality. Wake up folks. We have to compete with China, India, Russia, the Pacific Rim etc.

It happens in uni as well. I know a PhD that wants a tenured position and is annoyed that she can't get one because all the other tenured PhD's don't want to give up their positions.

Blame it on Madison Avenue advertising. The purpose of most advertising is to make people unhappy with what they've got so they will buy more crap. If you have more than $1,000 in assets you're ahead of 95% of the world population.

Would any politician have the guts to tell a parent that school is to teach the three R's not soccer, manners, hygiene, etc.
 
Last I looked the average public sector employee wage in Ontario is around $67K (all not just teachers), how is that gold plated? Or, how little do you make to think 67K is gold plated?

As for teachers, here are the pay grids for TDSB (pdf at the bottom):

Salary Grid for TDSB Elementary Teachers: 2014-2019 - Elementary Teachers of Toronto

The following document is the Salary Grid for Elementary Teachers employed by the Toronto District School...
ett.ca ett.ca

Payscales A through A4 are based on the level of education. The steps on each grid are based on the years of service (up to 10 years). AFAIK there are no to few A left as this was no degree (they would be pretty old as that was decades ago before the new education requirements....). A4 is the top which is an education requirement ~equal to a masters or AQs that equal that level of education. Average would be higher than the total public sector of course.

The grids are for Elementary, High School teachers are slightly higher. The grades (and what) you can teach are also based on your qualifications... (An Elementary teacher is not typically qualified to teach High School, or the other way around--they do have some overlap).

There are teachers off the grid that have specialty jobs at the board office (do not teach children), you see them in the sunshine list. VPs and Principals are not on this scale (and are generally paid more) and require additional education/qualification above all the above for admin.

Also keep in mind there is a good pension for the Ontario public sector that costs roughly 10% of their pay (out of pocket), payments matched by the employer (taxpayer). It is not some total freebee like presented in this thread by certain posters but no doubt it is good... My private sector pension, in comparison, I pay next to nothing out of pocket (~3K per year) and get roughly the same payout as they do--total ponzi scheme.

Feel free to be butthurt how you see fit... or to fit your narrative.

PS: And we know that all the butthurt people in this thread already know all this....as they are facts based!


Want to save money and improve education, stop funding religious schools.
 
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Mad Mike said:
Here's what I would do:

1) Make the work year year round. Based on tenure, teachers should be expected to teach elective classes, and summer school - OR - bank school year extra-curricular hours as lieu time to be used in summer breaks.
2) Make Vacation entitlements 4 weeks per year for the first 10 years, then 6 weeks per year. Today a York Region HS teacher gets 13 weeks vacation each year. Teachers in semestered schools get an additional 5-10 days off during exam periods.
3) Limit collective bargaining to hours, wages and benefits. Make class size, delivery methods (i.e on-line options), curriculum content 'out of scope' for bargaining. Teachers are delivering, not creating the deliver the curriculum, they do not create it nor are they qualified to determine how it's delivered.
4) Set a wage freeze until such time as supply of teachers meets demand.
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Hello!

I assume your name in real life is Mr. Stephen Lecce.

LoL

Seriously (and respectfully), your suggestions don't help me. Basically you just want the teachers in Ontario to work harder / longer, for a salary that will not increase until arbitrary conditions are met?

Me? I have children in school, and have a completely different perspective than yours. Is freezing their wages going to benefit me (my kids)? Would that freeze produce an increase in the quality of education? Because that's what I would prefer... changes that increase the quality of education my children get.

You see, everyone has a different opinion... it's not easy.
 
Globally speaking we (Canadians, not Ontarions specifically) have the 4th highest paid teachers (average teacher salary). Globally our education doesn't even rank in the top 20 countries. The theory that if you pay more you get better candidates is blatantly untrue. Not once have I seen a table or graph indicating any correlation between the two. I do think teachers are overpaid, but I also think that the rules and crap imposed on teachers by both parents and the government are equally as bad. If Johnny's an @$$hat, then the teacher should be free to kick the kid out of their class/school and fail him for producing failing results. Johnny's parents should STFU and accept they failed miserably as parents. In short, the government has been forcing teachers to push through stupid kids, and paying them excessively to shut up and do as they're told.

I have two kids in elementary school, and the scoring on tests is not a percentage like when most of us were in school. Now the results are ranked from 1- to 4+. I thought 1- was equivalent to 0 - 12% and 4+ was 88 - 100%. I was wrong. If a student gets a 1- that's equivalent to 50 - 60% (approx). They literally can not get a failing grade.

Bring back the strap, and use it on the parents too!
 
backmarkerducati said:
Last I looked the average public sector employee wage in Ontario is around $67K (all not just teachers), how is that gold plated? Or, how little do you make to think 67K is gold plated?

As for teachers, here are the pay grids for TDSB (pdf at the bottom):

Salary Grid for TDSB Elementary Teachers: 2014-2019 - Elementary Teachers of Toronto

The following document is the Salary Grid for Elementary Teachers employed by the Toronto District School...
ett.ca ett.ca

Payscales A through A4 are based on the level of education. The steps on each grid are based on the years of service (up to 10 years). AFAIK there are no to few A left as this was no degree (they would be pretty old as that was decades ago before the new education requirements....). A4 is the top which is an education requirement ~equal to a masters or AQs that equal that level of education. Average would be higher than the total public sector of course.

The grids are for Elementary, High School teachers are slightly higher. The grades (and what) you can teach are also based on your qualifications... (An Elementary teacher is not typically qualified to teach High School, or the other way around--they do have some overlap).

There are teachers off the grid that have specialty jobs at the board office (do not teach children), you see them in the sunshine list. VPs and Principals are not on this scale (and are generally paid more) and require additional education/qualification above all the above for admin.

Also keep in mind there is a good pension for the Ontario public sector that costs roughly 10% of their pay (out of pocket), payments matched by the employer (taxpayer). It is not some total freebee like presented in this thread by certain posters but no doubt it is good... My private sector pension, in comparison, I pay next to nothing out of pocket (~3K per year) and get roughly the same payout as they do--total ponzi scheme.

Feel free to be butthurt how you see fit... or to fit your narrative.

PS: And we know that all the butthurt people in this thread already know all this....as they are facts based!


Want to save money and improve education, stop funding religious schools.
Click to expand...
Looking at salaries of public sector employees is very disingenuous. Total compensation is a much more reasonable metric. The vast majority of pubic sector pensions are light years better than the vast majority of private sector pensions (which for many many people are zero). The complete inability to lose your job once you have it (short of relevant criminal charges) is also worth quite a lot and is not matched by any private employer.
 
GreyGhost said:
Looking at salaries of public sector employees is very disingenuous. Total compensation is a much more reasonable metric. The vast majority of pubic sector pensions are light years better than the vast majority of private sector pensions (which for many many people are zero). The complete inability to lose your job once you have it (short of relevant criminal charges) is also worth quite a lot and is not matched by any private employer.
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In Ontario they are paying ~10% of their salary (out of pocket) towards those pensions (OMERS and TPP)--matched by the employer (us). For those lucky enough to have private sector defined benefit plans, not very many (maybe none at all) will pay anywhere near that out of pocket. Not saying it isn't a sweet deal but they pay a lot into it.

All union jobs are hard to get fired from and are jobs for as long as the job exists, private or public.

BTW, there were teacher layoffs in some boards this year... nurse layoffs in the past so it is not always set for life...


Want to save money and improve education, stop funding religious schools.
 
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Mad Mike said:
That move took a lot of guts, but they survived and they broke the headlock the union put on society. Much to the chagrin of the controllers, there were mountains of qualified candidates in the wings, they recovered relatively quickly and the scourge to the public ended forever.

I doubt Dougie has the stones of Regan.
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Well he certainly doesn't have a public that would back drastic action, or a trustworthy media to report the facts.
 
backmarkerducati said:
In Ontario they are paying ~10% of their salary (out of pocket) towards those pensions (OMERS and TPP)--matched by the employer (us). For those lucky enough to have private sector defined benefit plans, not very many (maybe none at all) will pay anywhere near that out of pocket. Not saying it isn't a sweet deal but they pay a lot into it.

All union jobs are hard to get fired from and are jobs for as long as the job exists, private or public.

BTW, there were teacher layoffs in some boards this year... nurse layoffs in the past so it is not always set for life...


Want to save money and improve education, stop funding religious schools.
Click to expand...
I am all over not having a separate catholic board. The costs associated in duplicated admin/land/facilities are crazy and have almost no value. It should have been dissolved decades ago. If the catholic church wants to fund their own private schools, go ahead. There are a ton of jewish schools supported by the community. As long as it isn't a taxpayer burden, go nuts.

Personally, I have no problem with classes on religion being taught in public school as trying to understand the world without knowing the basics on religion is like trying to explore the world without knowing the basics of geography. I am not saying we should indoctrinate the hoards, just openly discuss the core beliefs and practices of various religions and compare and contrast.
 
We don’t have a public that backs drastic action because in some form or another, teacher firefighter nurse cop municipal worker politician , something like 30% of the workforce is connected to that public teat. Nobody wants to be next on the getting kicked list.


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backmarkerducati said:
All union jobs are hard to get fired from and are jobs for as long as the job exists, private or public.
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Not all. Private trade unions don't get any job security. Employees can fire anyone or everyone regardless of seniority. Not even 2 weeks notice. That's why there's competition on who brings more value to the company, not on who can undercut more.
 
MarcosSantiago said:
Hello!

I assume your name in real life is Mr. Stephen Lecce.

LoL

Seriously (and respectfully), your suggestions don't help me. Basically you just want the teachers in Ontario to work harder / longer, for a salary that will not increase until arbitrary conditions are met?

Me? I have children in school, and have a completely different perspective than yours. Is freezing their wages going to benefit me (my kids)? Would that freeze produce an increase in the quality of education? Because that's what I would prefer... changes that increase the quality of education my children get.

You see, everyone has a different opinion... it's not easy.
Click to expand...
Pay doesn't make any difference to quality of education. If you payed more but made teachers accountable and fired the bad ones I could support that.

Sent from my moto g(7) plus using Tapatalk
 
crankcall said:
We don’t have a public that backs drastic action because in some form or another, teacher firefighter nurse cop municipal worker politician , something like 30% of the workforce is connected to that public teat. Nobody wants to be next on the getting kicked list.


Sent from my iPhone using GTAMotorcycle.com
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And that is the root of the problem. It would be an interesting social experiment to see what happened when those at the public teat reached 51%. No political party could possibly win without saying that they would bow to the public sectors wishes. As the unions all battled each other and based their compensation on the other unions, it would probably be less than a decade before this had gone beyond the point of no return and the entire economy collapsed.

IMO (and I understand that many will not share this opinion) public sector jobs should pay less than their private sector counterparts. What you lose in dollars, you gain in stability (your employer isn't going to bounce cheques or disappear (apart from the IBM pay processing debacle)). If you want to drive a bmw, go work in the private sector. If you want a decent living wage and a chevy, your country wants you. This should apply to politicians too. Go back to the days where pillars of the community were elected and got a stipend of 20K for helping out. Politician should never have been allowed to become a career (especially with the ridiculous pension, severance pay if you don't get your contract renewed, double digit raises, etc).
 
Yeah, what is up with Catholic schools? I'm from BC where things like that didn't exist when I went to high school (oh, so long ago).

My younger brother went to one and heard that it's like non religious school + mass service and Sunday school type of class where you do Bible study. I have no first hand experience.

What's the ratio between catholic and non catholic public school? Whenever I drive by a school that I haven't seen, it almost feels like 50/50.

Anyways I agree on cutting catholic school funding. In a country with religious freedom, it doesn't make sense. Or maybe somehow reduce the funding for the religious portion.

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moarmoto said:
Yeah, what is up with Catholic schools? I'm from BC where things like that didn't exist when I went to high school (oh, so long ago).

My younger brother went to one and heard that it's like non religious school + mass service and Sunday school type of class where you do Bible study. I have no first hand experience.

What's the ratio between catholic and non catholic public school? Whenever I drive by a school that I haven't seen, it almost feels like 50/50.

Anyways I agree on cutting catholic school funding. In a country with religious freedom, it doesn't make sense. Or maybe somehow reduce the funding for the religious portion.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk
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In 1964 the PCs (Bill Davis as Education Minister) implemented funding for Catholic Schools up to grade 10. Then as Premier the same Bill Davis and PCs implemented full funding. Most would consider it a Hail Mary with the taxpayers money to get re-elected.

The argument was/is that under the original British North American Act (1867), blah, blah, blah it is required which is a load as most other provinces don't do it or have abolished it (maybe even no others do it today?). It is a huge waste of taxpayers money as we have to fund two systems including all the administration costs, separate buildings (although there have been some new ones where the building is shared), boards etc.. It technically violates the charter of rights as we are funding it for just one religion.

Not sure of the exact split, likely somewhere in the 60/40 to 50/50 range. In some cases there are schools that are half empty and literally across the street or around the corner they are building numerous portables as that school is overloaded, depending on the area one or the other is under filled.

Funny thing, if you roll a kid into a Catholic Church on Sunday the taxpayers do not have to pay a thing.


When it comes to the cost of education any government (blue, red, orange or whatever) that won't touch this has no credibility when it comes to costs, it is the elephant in the room.

Want to save money and improve education, stop funding religious schools.
 
backmarkerducati said:
In 1964 the PCs (Bill Davis as Education Minister) implemented funding for Catholic Schools up to grade 10. Then as Premier the same Bill Davis and PCs implemented full funding. Most would consider it a Hail Mary with the taxpayers money to get re-elected.

The argument was/is that under the original British North American Act (1867), blah, blah, blah it is required which is a load as most other provinces don't do it or have abolished it (maybe even no others do it today?). It is a huge waste of taxpayers money as we have to fund two systems including all the administration costs, separate buildings (although there have been some new ones where the building is shared), boards etc.. It technically violates the charter of rights as we are funding it for just one religion.

Not sure of the exact split, likely somewhere in the 60/40 to 50/50 range. In some cases there are schools that are half empty and literally across the street they are building numerous portables as the school is overloaded, depending on the area one or the other is under filled.

Funny thing, if you roll a kid into a Catholic Church on Sunday the taxpayers do not have to pay a thing.


When it comes to the cost of education any government (blue, red, orange or whatever) that won't touch this has no credibility when it comes to costs, it is the elephant in the room.

Want to save money and improve education, stop funding religious schools.
Click to expand...
I appreciate that we don't need the moving goalposts gifs for you. You get an A for consistency.
 
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