Any GTAM'ers own an electric vehicle?

[PrivatePilot]

Our old Chevy Aveo averaged around 8.0L/100KM in the 150,000 or so KM's we put on it before selling it. For a tiny underpowered econobox that was smaller than the Volt (or a Prius, or many others) that's pretty dismal in the grand scheme of things.

 

[mimico_polak]

Question for the VOLT owners out there as there's more and more...do you guys think it's worth buying the 2017/2018 instead of a 2014-2016?

From the sounds of PP range the 70km is achievable in the older gen? I like all the new bells and whistles but is it worth paying close to 30k when a few years older can be had for less? Almost half! Thinking of going to a few dealers this/next week to see what my Civic is worth. The car's still working well, but we've had a few instances now when the wife's car wasn't available and we had to rent because she can't drive a manual transmission. This may be worth it.

 

[PrivatePilot]

I haven't driven the new generation Volt so I can't offer a genuine comparison honestly, but here's my observations from what I know and have read.

- People like the interior of the second gen more - less "gizmo", more "traditional", but I kinda like gizmo myself LOL.

- They have the larger battery of course, but that isn't the be-all-end-all for those of whom the range of a Gen1 fits their needs. The latter years of the first generation also had larger batteries - I posted the specs earlier in this thread but they can be found easily via Google.

- The body styling of the second gen is liked more by some...but again, that's subjective - I actually like the first gen body style a LOT more myself - it's unique and turns heads whereas the second generation is far less distinct and kind of looks like every other compact-ish sedan out there.

- The second gen Volt doesn't need premium gas, and gets better MPG when in ICE mode as well. Again, depends on how much you plan to use the ICE - spending $15K more to save $5 per fill up and go a few extra KM on that tank, well..the math isn't hard.

If I were to do things all over again (and we may very well do exactly that, I can see another Volt in our future until Bolt's come down in price in the used market in 5 or so years) I would do the exact same thing over again - find a 2012-2013 in the sub $15K category with at least 30,000-50,000KM left on the Voltec warranty) and buy that.

For us, the math has already proven itself with our savings having exceeded $1000 between gas and oil change savings in a roughly 3 month ownership period.

I've actually been casually looking a Volts in the USA - there are 2011's and 2012's in the 100,000 mile range selling for the $8K USD range. That's under $10K CDN with the exchange rate right now, basically $11300.00 after taxes at the border, and the import process isn't terribly complicated...I've done it before. Yes, with 100,000 miles the Voltec warranty is expired so I would be doing careful due diligence on overall vehicle and battery health before handing over cash, but for what could amount to a $5000+ savings....the idea remains intriguing.

 

[GreyGhost]

but for what could amount to a $5000+ savings....the idea remains intriguing.

Are there restrictions on buying used batteries (eg. assuming stock was available can anyone walk into a wrecker and purchase a main battery pack) or are the packs automatically pulled and recycled instead of being put into another car? It would seem that such a part would be priced similar to an engine (~2K) so you would still be up even if the battery died and was replaced.

 

[GreyGhost]

Electric SUv that looks like it should get real cred from the legit off-road crowd. http://bollingermotors.com/

Also, a perfect commuter for people with low self-worth. Though with all those flat panels it must be a rattle can to ride in.

6100 lbs payload capacity in a Jeepish vehicle?

They say 72 sheets of 1/2" plywood fits (that would be ~3200 lbs), so you can put a 4'x8'x3' pile of something in their that is double the density of plywood safely? That sounds like the marketing people are way ahead of the engineering people on this project.

 

[PrivatePilot]

On the topic of my last reply.....Daaaaaanng, here's a Volt in IL for $5900USD.

https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/detail/679171394/overview/

No mileage listed, no options listed on cars.com, but the dealers website shows some more specs - looks like a base model for sure, but still no mileage. Probably very high given the price, but I sent an inquiry regardless.

$7300CDN plus taxes at the border = $8200.

Anyhow, looking within 500 miles of all the major Ontario border towns on cars.com does show some attractive prices so long as the milages don't scare you. I do understand how buying a Volt with the Voltec/battery warranty close to or beyond it's warranty would be concerning for some however, but knowing what I know about the excellent reliability of the Volt...it's something I'd consider for a $6000-$8000USD car.

For myself however the math is harder to make sense of - I'm only going through about 1 tank of gas in my Magnum every 2 weeks now (I drive the Volt instead whenever possible), so about $160 or so per month. Electricity in the Volt would probably only run about $15/month for my commuting and such, so with oil change savings as well I'd be looking at roughly $145 or so per month saved, or $1750/year. My payback vs my wife's would be much longer.

Still intriguing though.

 

[PrivatePilot]

Are there restrictions on buying used batteries (eg. assuming stock was available can anyone walk into a wrecker and purchase a main battery pack) or are the packs automatically pulled and recycled instead of being put into another car? It would seem that such a part would be priced similar to an engine (~2K) so you would still be up even if the battery died and was replaced.

Early on in this thread when Sunny was harping about how he'd never buy an electric vehicle because the batteries will all fail, I looked at car-parts.com and found a Volt battery at Standard Auto Wreckers (local GTA) for something in the $2000 range IIRC. I just looked again and found one in Quebec for $2500 out of a 2011, and expanding ones search to include the USA shows LOTS of them available for the under $1500USD price range, with one listed at only $975USD.

Yes, there's labor to install it and such, but even if that's $1000 it's still not out of line with a major engine or transmission overhaul/repair in a traditional ICE car IMHO. And reality is, in the end, the batteries and drivetrain in general have been proven to be uber-reliable. My own Volt with 140,000KM on the clock which just yesterday exceeded it's factory 55KM range by over 15 extra KM (in "normal" driving with some terrain on top of that) is a testament to the fact that battery degradation is NOT an issue on Volts.

 

[fastar1]

6100 lbs payload capacity in a Jeepish vehicle?

They say 72 sheets of 1/2" plywood fits (that would be ~3200 lbs), so you can put a 4'x8'x3' pile of something in their that is double the density of plywood safely? That sounds like the marketing people are way ahead of the engineering people on this project.

Quick math, that's 96 cu ft which is about 6000 lbs of water. So this could be a cistern truck!

I dunno anything about trucks and payload. I leave it to the experts to find the flaws in this thing.

 

[caboose56]

The thread has got a bit unwieldy to read from the start now, but I'm glad people are finding it interesting.

I looked at a Smart a few years ago but was honestly really surprised at how poor fuel economy they got - around 6.5L/100KM. The early diesel models yielded better at around 4.5L/100KM, but for some reason they only made them for a year or two before they switched to gas - unfortunately diesel vehicles are still low acceptance here and I think that hurt the early sales.

Without question it would be a diesel smart.

The gas Smarts aren't nearly good enough on fuel.

 

[mxs]

My own Volt with 140,000KM on the clock which just yesterday exceeded it's factory 55KM range by over 15 extra KM (in "normal" driving with some terrain on top of that) is a testament to the fact that battery degradation is NOT an issue on Volts.

I think battery degradation in most post 2009 (or whenever the last iteration of 18650 cells came out) cars is overblown myth ... there's enough data out there now to support it ..... that is, if the battery operation is properly managed! ... mainly from temperature standpoint. The one manufacturer who didn't build their packs right was Nissan and their Leaf, gen 1. Most others have fared pretty well, some very well, like Tesla.

 

[Rick CH]

The one manufacturer who didn't build their packs right was Nissan and their Leaf, gen 1.

From owners' reports, Ford's Energi plug-in hybrids are also suffering more battery degradation than others. Seems like they didn't build in as much of a buffer as GM did with the Volt.

 

[PrivatePilot]

From owners' reports, Ford's Energi plug-in hybrids are also suffering more battery degradation than others. Seems like they didn't build in as much of a buffer as GM did with the Volt.

What always surprises me isn't how Teslas regularly deplete their batteries far lower than the 30% buffer in the Volt, but based on what I've seen so far...don't seem to suffer from it?

Or maybe I'm just missing the stories. Admittedly I don't spent any time on Tesla related forums - I'm sure some google searches would yield lots of stories.

 

[mxs]

From owners' reports, Ford's Energi plug-in hybrids are also suffering more battery degradation than others. Seems like they didn't build in as much of a buffer as GM did with the Volt.

I doubt these "simple" plug-ins (I consider Voltec a step above) have thermally managed battery packs ... so it's not really that surprising. I think this is where Tesla has a real jump on others .... especially when compared to other EV's out there. Not so much Bolt supposedly, since Bolt has thermal management. Tesla's battery packs have been scrutinized before and they really do deliver. Hopefully Bolt and others will do the same. Make no mistake the Tesla Roadster, was originally bad from battery degradation ... but that's a long time ago.

 

[Rick CH]

I doubt these "simple" plug-ins (I consider Voltec a step above) have thermally managed battery packs

Yeah, I don't think they have the same management system, though Ford put one on their Focus EV. I'm wondering how much of an improvement the "lizard" battery formulations will do. Better, I'm sure, but will they be as good as the liquid themal management systems?

 

[PrivatePilot]

Went to the mall today, picked up about a quarter charge for free while we were there. Have over 100KM all electric so far today, running around and such.

 

[slowbird]

Question for the VOLT owners out there as there's more and more...do you guys think it's worth buying the 2017/2018 instead of a 2014-2016?

I agree with a lot of what PP mentioned.

I'd find a low mileage gen 1 Volt. Preferably a 2014-2015 model unless you really need the upgraded battery and range from a Gen 2.

I also prefer the looks of the Gen 1 vs the Gen 2

 

[mimico_polak]

I agree with a lot of what PP mentioned.

I'd find a low mileage gen 1 Volt. Preferably a 2014-2015 model unless you really need the upgraded battery and range from a Gen 2.

I also prefer the looks of the Gen 1 vs the Gen 2

This is the way I'm leaning...even though "I won't get the rebate as I do buying new" it's still 10k or more savings on the car...which to me is better than the rebate. Round trip to/from office is 50km door to door. And if I pay for parking at the office...free charging for 4hrs...although there was one ********* with a Mitsubishi something or other...smallest car on the lot took 2 charging spots! What a ****ing *******....even EV drivers can be asshats...

 

[Brian P]

I find many small cars strangely don't get the mileage some larger cars get, as if they have motors too small for them and they have to work too hard.

Aerodynamics works against them. It's hard to make a short shape as aerodynamic as something with a longer tail. If you want to have two people sitting side by side upright, the width and height (and thus the frontal area) are largely set, so it punches about the same sized hole in the air that a bigger (within reason) vehicle would, and probably a rougher hole than a longer vehicle would. The smaller vehicle can be lighter, and that helps in stop and go and if there are hills, but it doesn't mean much in steady level conditions.

Motorcycles are the extreme example of this ... small, light, but aerodynamically very dirty. Lots of bikes use 5 - 6 L/100 km. My fiat 500 uses about 6 L/100 km. A number of next-size-up cars will come close to the 500 for fuel usage due to better aerodynamics ... but any car that I have, has to fit between the van and the garage door, and anything but a subcompact is too big!

 

[slowbird]

Motorcycles are the extreme example of this ... small, light, but aerodynamically very dirty. Lots of bikes use 5 - 6 L/100 km. My fiat 500 uses about 6 L/100 km. A number of next-size-up cars will come close to the 500 for fuel usage due to better aerodynamics

Turbo or N/A Fiat?

I was able to get close to that when I had my 500 Abarth

Going through my GasCubby app and the vehicles I have owned, here are the Average Fuel economy of each.
From Best average L/100kms to worst:

2014 Chevy Volt: 1.3L/100kms (best 0.0)
2000 VFR800: 4.5L/100kms (best 3.4)
1986 VF500: 5.1L/100kms (best 4.7)
1997 VFR750: 5.2L/100kms (best 4.4)
1986 VFR750: 6.2L/100kms (best 3.2)
2012 Fiat 500 Abarth: 7.0L/100kms (best 6.0)
2004 Grand Am GT: 9.5 L/100kms (best 5.0)
2012 G37x: 11.0L/100kms (best 6.7)

It's funny how I could get better fuel economy occasionally with the larger cars with larger engines like the Grand Am and the G37 then I could with the Fiat.

 

[Brian P]

Non-turbo, manual transmission. Average is around 6, best has been 5.4.

5.0 L/100 km with a Grand Am GT must have been DWFW (downhill with following wind)