Any GTAM'ers own an electric vehicle? | Page 229 | GTAMotorcycle.com

Any GTAM'ers own an electric vehicle?

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LBV said:
$10k off in April during the height of Covid wave #1 made it too good to pass up.
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Wow nice buy! My buddy's biggest concern is that he 'doesn't trust Ford batteries' compared to his Y. Haven't read enough about the batteries on the Mustang but will do some research. Maybe with time some used models will pop up when it's time to replace the WRX.
 
mimico_polak said:
Wow nice buy! My buddy's biggest concern is that he 'doesn't trust Ford batteries' compared to his Y. Haven't read enough about the batteries on the Mustang but will do some research. Maybe with time some used models will pop up when it's time to replace the WRX.
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For me, active cooling is required. Any vehicle that tries passive cooling is off the list (as they have proven time and time again that it doesnt work). If they have active cooling, I expect them all to have similar (or longer) useful life than ICE.
 
Evoex said:
nationalpost.com

Environment minister raises idea of joint Canada, U.S. ban on new gasoline-powered vehicles

Environment Minister Jonathan Wilkinson said Ottawa and the incoming Biden administration both agreed zero emissions vehicles needed to be deployed faster
nationalpost.com nationalpost.com
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Bleeping morons. Did they forget Canada is big and much of it is not developed? Let JT take his EV from TB to Dryden in the winter and see how happy he is with his brain dead decision then. Hopefully he dies frozen at the side of the T-Can.
 
^ It's just as much of a political statement as in practically every other country that has said they would do something similar. It doesn't take effect until a couple election cycles after the current one, so it's beyond the future that they plan for. It's a feel-good statement for the most part.

BUT.

What it does do, is motivate the vehicle manufacturers and suppliers to develop better EVs and better technology for them, and provide motivation for developing better infrastructure (charging stations, etc) and this is a good thing.

The stretch from Thunder Bay to Winnipeg is a challenge. 700 km of not much civilisation and there's only one road through that doesn't cross the border into the USA. In the future EV world, basically every single vehicle travelling the TransCanada is going to need a couple of healthy recharges to get through that, and that includes every single transport truck assuming those also change to EV. Dryden has a population of about 8000, so there is electrical distribution network brought to the area, but I wonder if it has enough megawatts in capacity to do that.

Checking PlugShare now. There is a Tesla Supercharger in Ignace, and another one in Dryden, and another in Kenora, and there are a few PetroCanada and other EV charging stations in the same towns. It's doable with a Tesla now basically without an issue, and should be doable although cumbersome with anything else. It will get better, even if it means running another transmission line to the area to get enough power for some really big charging stations.

As far as the "combustion engine ban" goes ... as the date comes closer, it's likely to be either postponed or watered-down depending on the actual situation on the ground. I'm quite sure that by 2030, EVs will have a healthy market share. The vehicles will be better than what we can get now (and probably by a lot), and charging stations will be everywhere.
 
Mad Mike said:
To make up the difference between $13k civic and $18k volt you would need to save $5k in fuel over the life of the car. At today’s prices that would mean driving about 150,000 km before the electric car becomes more economical.
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The last 5 years or so worth of Honda Civics shows around 7.5L/100KM average on Fuelly. Prices in town here are about $1.00L right now, so the math is easy - Each 100KM $7.50.

100km in a second gen Volt would be around 19kwh. At current off peak of $0.105/kwh, that 100km costs about $1.99

So every 100km costs $5.50 less.

So, the break even is actually about 90,000km, not 150,000.

If you have access to public or private charging at no cost, that number can drop dramatically. There's a guy who parks his Bolt at the Oshawa Centre chargers and charges there overnight for free - probably lives nearby within walking distance one might assume. Needless to say that changes the math dramatically as well.

Ditto if you've got free charging at work for example and never or seldom need to charge at home.

Back when off peak electricity was 4.5c/kwh the math was also a lot prettier. Sadly the very thing that Time Of Use metering was designed to help (shifting usage to off peak hours when electricity was cheaper and more plentiful) the whole drive behind it has been whittled away as the off peak hours have slowly climbed.

GreyGhost said:
For me, active cooling is required. Any vehicle that tries passive cooling is off the list (as they have proven time and time again that it doesnt work). If they have active cooling, I expect them all to have similar (or longer) useful life than ICE.
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My wife's Ioniq is air cooled. It was something I paid attention to and did a lot of due diligence on before buying, that's for sure. My conclusion is that while there's no doubt liquid cooling is far superior, in our northern climate it's not as big a deal as it would be in, for example, Arizona or Texas or something where the temperatures are far more extreme, and more persistent. In Canada air cooled batteries have fared much better. We also rarely fast charge as well (another major heat generator) so it wasn't a show stopper for us at least.

I've actually driven the car around with my OBD dongle plugged in and monitored battery temperatures and cooling fan RPM throughout a drive cycle. The batteries never reached a concerning temperature, nor did the cooling fans ever even speed up to their full speed, indicating to me that the BCM wasn't particularly concerned either.
 
I heard a rumor the feds are going to start financing more charging stations across Canada. I see the end of the internal combustion engine coming. I don't think the solution is to ban them. Once electric hits its stride the change will occur naturally.
 
Roadghost said:
I heard a rumor the feds are going to start financing more charging stations across Canada. I see the end of the internal combustion engine coming. I don't think the solution is to ban them. Once electric hits its stride the change will occur naturally.
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A level of government support of the next technological leap is wise however to hasten the change, or ease the arrival of the technology.

One only need look as far as Bell Canada right now who is receiving dump truck loads of cash to improve infrastructure in under serviced areas.
 
PrivatePilot said:
The last 5 years or so worth of Honda Civics shows around 7.5L/100KM average on Fuelly. Prices in town here are about $1.00L right now, so the math is easy - Each 100KM $7.50.

100km in a second gen Volt would be around 19kwh. At current off peak of $0.105/kwh, that 100km costs about $1.99

So every 100km costs $5.50 less.

So, the break even is actually about 90,000km, not 150,000.

If you have access to public or private charging at no cost, that number can drop dramatically. There's a guy who parks his Bolt at the Oshawa Centre chargers and charges there overnight for free - probably lives nearby within walking distance one might assume. Needless to say that changes the math dramatically as well.

Ditto if you've got free charging at work for example and never or seldom need to charge at home.

Back when off peak electricity was 4.5c/kwh the math was also a lot prettier. Sadly the very thing that Time Of Use metering was designed to help (shifting usage to off peak hours when electricity was cheaper and more plentiful) the whole drive behind it has been whittled away as the off peak hours have slowly climbed.
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A couple of things to consider in your calculations. First, fuelly shows an average of 7.0 for the last 5 years, so you are about 7% heavy on fuel consumption. Next, you forgot to include delivery, loss charge, surcharges and taxes on the electricity cost. All-in off peak kWh in Toronto is min $.1437kwh so you’re about 36% low there.

A Volt uses 21kwh/100. That’s from the battery without heat and A/C. To make the comparison fair let’s assume climate control is used, at an average increases of 30%(40 in the winter). Including that and charging overhead makes 27.3kwh/100 km a fair comparison.

so... Civic fuel is $7.00, Volt $4.22/100km. Diff of $2.98. The break even on a used would be $5000/.0298 or 167,785km. If this was a new car comparison with a $20k delta, the break even point would be past the useful life of the cars.
 
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Mad Mike said:
First, fuelly shows an average of 7.0 for the last 5 years, so you are about 7% heavy on fuel consumption.
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1608383105142.png

If you pick the middle of the bell curve it's actually 7.5.

And a Volt doesn't use 21kw to go 100km, on average. Heck, my 2011 will go 60KM in the summer without much effort on around 10kw.

Yes, there variables including usage of HVAC and outdoor temperature, but that holds true for both ICE and EV vehicles. An EV may use 20% more battery in the winter, but people often forget or fail to notice that their car may be using 40% more gas, particularly for short trips which is what the majority of vehicles are used for.

In the end, the break even points can be all over the map so trying to nail down one number versus another involves so many variables (including, as I mentioned, if a person has access to free charging at work or wherever - no ICE drivers have access to free gas stations) that it's impossible to narrow down exactly. If I was given access to a plug tomorrow at work for example, my operating costs would instantly go to zero for the average 50KM a day I drive. My BIL was in that exact situation for quite a while at a past job actually - access to a plug in the parking garage = $0 daily 90km commute.

Yes, EV's cost more to buy (at this point at least, but that gap is increasingly narrowing) but less to operate. We can all agree on that.

Beyond that, things get very fuzzy very fast depending on many variables that EV owners can flex that an ICE owner cannot.
 
Plus ... every several thousand km the combustion-engine vehicle needs the oil changed. For the average owner who takes the car to the dealer it's another buck or so per 100 km. If you're going to split hairs ...
 
Maintenance is certainly a factor as is the inconvenience of filling up your car with gas every week or so. Put a value on that too - not a monetary one for sure, but certainly a quality of life one. To me, there are a few of those with an EV over gas.

It's not all about the money 100% of the time. Now that the mortgage is paid off for me, what's the point in dying a rich man? Isn't that why we ride, because it makes us feel good even though it costs $ to own something we really don't need?

Everyone has that threshold at a different place & I understand that, but don't learn the hard way and too late in life to smell the roses along the way.
 
LBV said:
Maintenance is certainly a factor as is the inconvenience of filling up your car with gas every week or so. Put a value on that too - not a monetary one for sure, but certainly a quality of life one. To me, there are a few of those with an EV over gas.
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There is also sometimes a need for a useless trip just to get gas. 90% of my driving is taking the kids to school/daycare. The gas station close to the daycare is ~10-15% more expensive than costco which is 20 minutes in the other direction. If you need to go near costco anyway, the savings in gas pays for the trip, if you are just going for gas, it is probably a wash. There is a definite advantage to starting every day with full range in your vehicle (especially for my wife who isn't always the most attentive and we hop in the car to go somewhere and realize we have <100 km before we need to stop for gas).
 
PrivatePilot said:
View attachment 46254

If you pick the middle of the bell curve it's actually 7.5.

And a Volt doesn't use 21kw to go 100km, on average. Heck, my 2011 will go 60KM in the summer without much effort on around 10kw.

Yes, there variables including usage of HVAC and outdoor temperature, but that holds true for both ICE and EV vehicles. An EV may use 20% more battery in the winter, but people often forget or fail to notice that their car may be using 40% more gas, particularly for short trips which is what the majority of vehicles are used for.

In the end, the break even points can be all over the map so trying to nail down one number versus another involves so many variables (including, as I mentioned, if a person has access to free charging at work or wherever - no ICE drivers have access to free gas stations) that it's impossible to narrow down exactly. If I was given access to a plug tomorrow at work for example, my operating costs would instantly go to zero for the average 50KM a day I drive. My BIL was in that exact situation for quite a while at a past job actually - access to a plug in the parking garage = $0 daily 90km commute.

Yes, EV's cost more to buy (at this point at least, but that gap is increasingly narrowing) but less to operate. We can all agree on that.

Beyond that, things get very fuzzy very fast depending on many variables that EV owners can flex that an ICE owner cannot.
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For the average driver swapping rides, my numbers will likely be best case. A driver can alter behaviour, so can ice drivers (hi milers).

I guess you could be lucky and have someone else pay for your fuel, but that isn’t going to be the norm. If you travel and need to pay charging stations (avg $17/hr in ON), even the most efficient e-card would be around 0.06/km, making the argument for e cars a lot tougher.

Bottom line is you need a lot of if’s to go in your favour to make this work in less than 100k km on a used vehicle. At current gas prices it’s not feasible over the normal life of a car.
 
Actual real world EV owner experience (IE, Me) is that I only pay for on the road charging perhaps 25% of the time. And that's typically only level 3, and even not then all the time - went to Hamilton last weekend for example in my wife's Ioniq and charged at Ikea for free on their L3.

Level 2....there's lots of free options out there..or cheap options if there's not a freebie nearby - most are about $1-$2/hour, with many being $2 flat rate. Wife's Ioniq can charge to full on a L2 in about 3.5 hours.

$17/hour is a bit of an arbitrary figure as well for several reasons and certainly is not even remotely universal. Some L3 EV chargers charge by the minute. Some are flat rate. Some have a flat start fee and a cheap per minute afterwards. Some have no start fee and a higher per minute. Some are free for a certain time and start charging after a certain time period to prompt people to move on quickly when they're done versus hogging the charger unnecessarily. Hell, some are just free.
 
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