Another young rider died near 400 and hwy 7

[Roomie]

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I like your example questions. There was a kid at the dealer buying a new gsxr 600 and he'd never been on a motorized two wheeled anything before. I just shook my head when he said "it's only the 600. Not like I'm looking at the 1000" That to me is a major no no. How the hell do you climb on a sport bike of any size when you've never ridden anything of the sort in your life? That's the formula for becoming another statistic.

 

[Jayv]

While I agree with you, the only thing I will say against what you said is that this could have happened on any size bike so I don't think it was necessarily a factor in what happened with this situation. A 250 is capable of going too fast on a ramp with an inexperienced rider.

Any bike can kill, no denying that. But it takes a 250cc bike a lot longer to get up to speed than a modern 600 that can do it at ease. Smaller displacement bikes also offer a less aggressive riding position which in turn is easier for newer riders.

 

[Chaos]

Any bike can kill, no denying that. But it takes a 250cc bike a lot longer to get up to speed than a modern 600 that can do it at ease.

yup, definitely allows for more margin of throttle error.

 

[BNKN]

Street is race track like cul de sac is hockey rink. Grow up.

Rider rip.

 

[mahnoy]

I'm bothered every time I see reports of a young person crashing and dying who's the same age as my sons. It bother me that nobody was watching out for them. Can we do something about it? **** yes. Group riding could be a great way for a new rider to pick up some skills, but that's not what usually happens. They get thrown at the tail end of a fast riding group and everybody hopes they make it. This isn't working. Whether it's peer pressure to keep up, pride, ignorance, whatever, they get in over their heads. Telling a noob to "ride their own ride" when they don't know wtf appropriate speeds are for their skills are, this is also not working.

So what can we do you ask? Watch out for the new riders for ****s sakes. They are handing out messages that they are in too deep. Read the chicken strips on tires before a ride. If you see somebody that looks uncomfortable on their bike, cornering poorly, crossing the line because they aren't dealing with the speed of the pack well, work with them. Watch what they are doing, offer pointers. Take them out for some one on one time, cool the pace, get them cornering properly. An inexperienced rider often didn't know they were in trouble until their bike stops sliding into the ditch. If being able to handle speed that a new rider fails at fluffs your ego, well give your head a shake.

I've made the offer with EVERY new rider that looks like they are at risk, a bunch have taken me up on the offer. Taking them aside at a stop in a group ride, offering tips whatever, won't embarrass them. When I'm leading a group, pace is set to the lowest common denominator, not the fastest. If faster riders find the pace slow, that's fine, they are welcome to self-fornicate and leave. Yes I baby the new riders, and they all make it home.

That is all, as a "community" I think we treat our young poorly.

Hey Mike, I respect what you do. I was fortunate enough when I first started riding, I met a couple older and more experienced guys who showed some riding techniques. My first group ride, I had a guy leading and a guy tailing me. They kept a good pace but the guy who was leading likes to corner hard, and I followed his tire track and imitated his posture (in my head I was thinking - if he can do it, then it's possible). It taught me to be a better rider. They never pressured me to go faster or do anything I wasn't uncomfortable doing.

I wish there were more people out there who would look out for the newbs. Then again, the newbs who start off on a 600cc sport bikes are prob too stubborn to listen anyway...

 

[Roomie]

I wish there were more people out there who would look out for the newbs. Then again, the newbs who start off on a 600cc sport bikes are prob too stubborn to listen anyway...

Excellent point.

 

[kiwi]

Mike, it's too easy to get a licence and any size bike you want after asking 30 multiple choice questions.

I am not saying any of this had any thing to do with the crash last night, but just a general comment that Canadian motorcycle licence standards and the way they are issued have some serious flaws.

I would mandate a law 250cc or lower for 2 years for new riders. That's the way it was done when I was young and starting out.

 

[nakkers]

Motorcycles are simply less forgiving than a cage. No bumpers, no protection unless your wear it. So much more that can go wrong. The maturity level of people can vary so much. I hate the thought of restricting and madating things a certain way. I have my own thoughts on what kind of experience makes for developing a good rider but, what value is that?


I think it's important to know and understand the risk of riding 400 series highways but, I'd have to say other than the need to get from A to B in the quickest way possible, the 400 series highways offer nothing to a motorcyclist. And when congested with cages, they only offer more risk.

There are a select few that know and can appreciate just how fulfilling riding a small displacement motorcycle is. They can be light and quick in handling and produce plenty of grins when the tach is wound up and carrying speed through the twists of some friendly two lane roads.

There are some powerful machines out there that are simply boring commuting on a 400 series highway and it's so tempting to "open it up a little bit" to produce any kind of excitement.

I've been fortunate enough to been mentored by folks that could take a motorize vehicle (2 or 4 wheels) that was slow and drive it fast. That takes skill and patience and understanding. And PRACTICE................


I was lucky enough to learn on dirt cause dirt don't hurt. (As much anyways) Know what it's like for the front end to wash out. Go over the handle bars. To fishtail on purpose and by mistake. To power side or feel what it's like when a wheel breaks loose and get's a bit squirrely etc.

I can't imagine trying out motorized two wheels for the first time in my life in the GTA. Let alone, jump on a modern day 600 with a group as my guide. No matter how noob friendly it can be. I think a noob should stick to riding in less congested areas and if riding with a group, limit it to a few riders at the most. And it should go without saying, the group should be experienced and understanding of the noob they are responsible for setting an example for.

RIP rider.

 

[EC2010]

I find it disturbing that eye-witness account that the deceased was the last one in the group and no one in that riding group saw what happened.

What happened to having a sweep?

I know ultimately "everyone rides his/her own ride". If I am the lead, that wouldn't matter, I would totally feel responsible should something happens to someone in the group. There are so many things that can be done, e.g. setting the pace (from posted to 10+ on GPS, assigning check points so people who wants to peel off can get there and wait for the group. Most of all, as a lead, knowing there are newbies in the group, you have to go over the ground rules before the ride, and not just have newbies play catch up all the time.

RIP, gone way too soon.

 

[matt123]

I would mandate a law 250cc or lower for 2 years for new riders. That's the way it was done when I was young and starting out.

I agree a new rider can get in plenty enough trouble with a 250 as it is.In Europe they do it this way.
Conventional wisdom puts the newer riders at the front of the pack not at the back.It's far better to let them ride at there own pace and not be made to feel like they need to t keep up.I have also seen new riders rear end or side swipe others at stop lights which is an easy way to lose a leg.
Then theres always a feeling of responsibility amongst the group when a new rider goes down trying to keep up since they don't always know what their getting into and we do.
I don't understand why the beginner courses don't teach counter steering at speed. Most new riders I have taught will eventually find themselves in trouble in the corners.I have videos of newly graduated riders fighting the bike while strataling the center line in with on coming traffic.It's almost as terrifying to watch as being there and we all have been there.Survival Reactions and the a accompanying panic can kill.
RIP rider

 

[RR929]

I have gone on diverse groups of rides in the past. Especially when I was just getting into it. Nowadays, I prefer to ride alone with with people I know are safer riders.

I remembered there was a large group ride with a diverse age mix and experience level. After the ride, we pit at the timmies afterward. Two of the newer riders' eyes were light up and look up to some of the faster riders as if
he is Justin Bieber and they are some teenage girls on puberty. Praising how fast they are making the turns and going 250n on the straight. The response from these 'rock stars' I recall was to read 'twist of the wrist' and just practice more. It waslr the group lead who said that. The group did start with a sweeper but I guess cuz of the diverse group of some slower New riders, the sweeper ended up in the front of the pack.

I guess the organizers have good intention from the start but once the ride starts, a lot of the planned safety went out the window. In almost all my group rides, they all say we would go just a little above limit maybe 10 to 15 max. At the end, the pace speed is like 30+ above at least and often times at speed that would get all our bikes impounded.

 

[PLau]

Hey Mike, I respect what you do. I was fortunate enough when I first started riding, I met a couple older and more experienced guys who showed some riding techniques. My first group ride, I had a guy leading and a guy tailing me. They kept a good pace but the guy who was leading likes to corner hard, and I followed his tire track and imitated his posture (in my head I was thinking - if he can do it, then it's possible). It taught me to be a better rider. They never pressured me to go faster or do anything I wasn't uncomfortable doing.

I wish there were more people out there who would look out for the newbs. Then again, the newbs who start off on a 600cc sport bikes are prob too stubborn to listen anyway...

I have to agree with you on this one. When riding with others, even when you're NOT being pressured, you feel as if you can take the turn the same way the people around you can if you imitate what they're doing - not knowing some specifics such as looking through the turn, counter steering and body positioning.

I think at this moment, the fear you usually have of "can I actually take this turn at this speed" goes to the back of your head and attempt to take it faster that you normally would be able to handle.

After speaking to many experienced riders, they say starting on a 600cc bike isn't that bad (depending on the maturity of the rider). They say it just takes longer to get the basics down and focus on them rather than thinking you can ride well by riding fast in a straight line.
According to them, taking lessons at a track would be the best route to taming your ride and getting the basics down before moving on to something bigger.

I myself prefer to ride solo to focus on riding my own ride rather than being distracted by trying to keep up with other more experienced riders. You also get to do whatever you want, whenever you want - which for me is finding great scenery and exploring new routes mostly up North(Plus I probably won't be able to keep up with others on a CBR125 on the highway )

As for M1Exit/M1Exit lessons, I think what you learn in the lessons should be what is needed for the M1 - not M2. Why are we just starting to learn how to shift gears and use the brakes when you already have the graduated license level to ride a liter bike? How come we aren't taught about how to use mirrors in these lessons? (No mirrors on bikes probably because they've been dropped so much that there wouldn't be a point cause they'd break)

 

[SRADguy]

I've made the offer with EVERY new rider that looks like they are at risk, a bunch have taken me up on the offer. Taking them aside at a stop in a group ride, offering tips whatever, won't embarrass them. When I'm leading a group, pace is set to the lowest common denominator, not the fastest. If faster riders find the pace slow, that's fine, they are welcome to self-fornicate and leave. Yes I baby the new riders, and they all make it home.

Where do these kind of rides take place?

I haven't come across any so far, I'm a new rider on a 600 but 4 of the 6 groups rides I've been a part of this season I left because I knew I was riding above my skill level.

 

[Sinz]

Where do these kind of rides take place?

I haven't come across any so far, I'm a new rider on a 600 but 4 of the 6 groups rides I've been a part of this season I left because I knew I was riding above my skill level.

You just gotta feel comfortable with the people you ride with, if you see others ripping up the roads, weaving in & out of traffic then just turn off somewhere and go solo but there is guys that do take it easy with new riders, if you want join me and a few others for a cruise to the falls on Sunday, there will be no crazy shenanigans going on just a nice scenic ride!

 

[油井緋色]

I'm actually quite surprised that nobody went back to check up on guy in the back. The pack I ride with constantly looks back (which signals me to look back) to see if we've lost anyone. If we do, we either pull over or we slow down.

I didn't do much group riding until this year, I guess I hit lucky with a mature group (I'm the youngest, everyone else is 30+).

 

[Sunny87]

There are some great people on this board who will look out for the newbs, but I don't think it should be on the onus of lead riders to feel responsible for newbs. If newbs can't take on the responsibility to look after themselves by checking their ego at the door when riding, then no one else should.

I think i'm over generalizing, but if someone wants to start on a supersport when a whole host of information is available to advise against it, I doubt they would be willing to have someone harp on more information on how to ride. Everyone wants to believe that they are that special someone who won't be just another statistic and are going to beat the odds, but sadly the statistics are there for a reason. Inability to check one's ego + lack of experience = disaster.

 

[shahfaisal]

I'm bothered every time I see reports of a young person crashing and dying who's the same age as my sons. It bother me that nobody was watching out for them. Can we do something about it? **** yes. Group riding could be a great way for a new rider to pick up some skills, but that's not what usually happens. They get thrown at the tail end of a fast riding group and everybody hopes they make it. This isn't working. Whether it's peer pressure to keep up, pride, ignorance, whatever, they get in over their heads. Telling a noob to "ride their own ride" when they don't know wtf appropriate speeds are for their skills are, this is also not working.

So what can we do you ask? Watch out for the new riders for ****s sakes. They are handing out messages that they are in too deep. Read the chicken strips on tires before a ride. If you see somebody that looks uncomfortable on their bike, cornering poorly, crossing the line because they aren't dealing with the speed of the pack well, work with them. Watch what they are doing, offer pointers. Take them out for some one on one time, cool the pace, get them cornering properly. An inexperienced rider often didn't know they were in trouble until their bike stops sliding into the ditch. If being able to handle speed that a new rider fails at fluffs your ego, well give your head a shake.

I've made the offer with EVERY new rider that looks like they are at risk, a bunch have taken me up on the offer. Taking them aside at a stop in a group ride, offering tips whatever, won't embarrass them. When I'm leading a group, pace is set to the lowest common denominator, not the fastest. If faster riders find the pace slow, that's fine, they are welcome to self-fornicate and leave. Yes I baby the new riders, and they all make it home.

That is all, as a "community" I think we treat our young poorly.

+1 how can we help should be the focus instead of throwing them back.. Could also help to pair the with another rider who volunteers to stay with them in a ride so as to lower the pressure to catch up.

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[robmack]

I guess the organizers have good intention from the start but once the ride starts, a lot of the planned safety went out the window. In almost all my group rides, they all say we would go just a little above limit maybe 10 to 15 max. At the end, the pace speed is like 30+ above at least and often times at speed that would get all our bikes impounded.

+1 for this observation as I've experienced it myself. I've 20+ years of riding experience, tend to know my limits and never exceed my limits. Went on a group ride last season advertized here through GTAM, point being these were unknown riders to me. All the riders were younger than I and riding 10-15 over consistently. The planned route took us through subdivisions, for example, and I thought it fool-hearty to speed through the subdivision because the roads had nice curves. I maneuvered to the back of the group and kept my pace to my comfort level. Eventually, I got disgusted with the excessive speed and peeled off to finish the day alone.

I can imagine that the outcome from this group ride for the poor rider referenced in this thread (RIP) might have been different if he had the foresight to stay within his skill envelope and not been enticed out of it by the group.

 

[crankcall]

I've followed this discussion closely, and foremost I'm very sorry to hear of another fatality with a new young rider. One riders average is an others extreme.

 

[wandering_bandit]

+1 how can we help should be the focus instead of throwing them back.. Could also help to pair the with another rider who volunteers to stay with them in a ride so as to lower the pressure to catch up.

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Too much peer pressure and group think in groups. Almost impossible to ride your own ride... need really good level of maturity to control that.

Really sad to hear about the young rider... really sad. Something similar to this happens every year if not someone killed, someone hurt. We have to get the message out - we have to make group rides safer. Pairing up with someone more experienced in group rides would be a great idea.

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