51st State? Or not.

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DownUnder said:
The only reason China makes solar and wind stuff is because the west subsidizes and they can make crazy amount of money from it.
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I'm sorry: WHAT ARE YOU ON ABOUT?????

The west is SUBSIDIZING China????? What kinda drugs are you doing and can I get some? The west is putting tariffs all over Chinese production (I know you guys have a problem with what tariffs are and what they do, but simply put they are the opposite of a subsidy)

They ARE making a crazy amount o' dough... and you say that like it's a BAD thing. That's called CAPITALISM and those damned commies are pretty good at that capitalist thing huh?

You COULD make an intelligent argument that CHINA is subsidizing "solar and wind" by allowing untold environmental damage to CHINA to make the stuff and dumping product on the west... but you didn't, you tried to infer the INSANE idea that we are subsidizing Chinese production of anything made in China.
You could make an intelligent argument that Canada is subsidizing China by way of allowing them to mine IN Canada, using Chinese nationals, NOT Canadians (like Canadian law dictates)... but you didn't (and I don't think they're mining anything used in wind or solar)

And last time I checked; we were only losing about $20 a ton for that coal going to China, but it buys us a bunch of decent paying jobs. THAT IS A SUBSIDY... FOR Canadian workers.
 
DownUnder said:
So Today, China is allowed to pollute the hell out of the planet to enrich members of its communist party but the west has to answer for the sins of its father?
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You missed the part about China switching to renewable at a rate exponentially faster than the US... for the benefit of all of us on earth, even the petro czars get cleaner air.
Following the current US government wants, more pollution for everyone

Germany has wholeheartedly embraced renewables... and it hasn't ruined their economy... AND the Germans are dealing with an unstable gas supply AS they embraced renewables
 
bitzz said:
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Germany has wholeheartedly embraced renewables... and it hasn't ruined their economy... AND the Germans are dealing with an unstable gas supply AS they embraced renewables
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Not ruined… yet.

Germany is at a tipping point, protracted stagnation, energy insecurity, declining domestic demand. The have an aging shrinking workforce masking serious unemployment problem. They are also facing some tough economic headwinds as both those things worsen.

Germans are also terribly slow to react to change, they are never nimble when it comes to economic corrections.

I’m not bullish on Germany.
 
bitzz said:
You missed the part about China switching to renewable at a rate exponentially faster than the US... for the benefit of all of us on earth, even the petro czars get cleaner air.
Following the current US government wants, more pollution for everyone

Germany has wholeheartedly embraced renewables... and it hasn't ruined their economy... AND the Germans are dealing with an unstable gas supply AS they embraced renewables
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You must have missed the part where china isnt "switching" to renewables, and are in fact building 6x more NEW coal power plants then the rest of the world combined, (switching would imply they are closing coal and moving to renewable) not sure if id call that benefiting the earth. Germanys economy is circling the drain and they have lost a lot of their manufacturing base just like canada.

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Your ok with canadians having jobs in coal while helping china pollute but your against Americans having jobs to help their country become energy independent? Your ok with china burning an insurmountable amount of coal and india polluting the **** out of the planet but god forbid if the US drills for fossil fuels. Drilling for oil doesnt necessarily mean more immediate pollution either, the amount of vehicles on the road etc wont all of a sudden triple because more oil was pumped.
 
You must have missed the part where china isnt "switching" to renewables, and are in fact building 6x more NEW coal power plants then the rest of the world combined, (switching would imply they are closing coal and moving to renewable) not sure if id call that benefiting the earth. Germanys economy is circling the drain and they have lost a lot of their manufacturing base just like canada.
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It is not either or.... China is also building and has more nuclear, solar and wind than anyone else.

China puts coal on back burner as renewables soar
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22 Aug 2024 — In the first half of 2024, China reduced coal power permits by 83% compared to H1 2023, permitting only 9 gigawatts (GW) in H1 2024.
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11 July 2024 — Clean energy generated a record-high 44% of China's electricity in May 2024, pushing coal's share down to a record low of 53%.
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DownUnder said:
Your ok with canadians having jobs in coal while helping china pollute but your against Americans having jobs to help their country become energy independent?
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China is burning coal to build a nation, that was agrarian 50 yrs ago. Trying to bring 1.4 billion people out of the stone age. Till their standard of living approaches 50% of american's I'm good with that.
When the US petro czars start to worry about the 12% of US population that lives in poverty I'll stop protesting the US oil czars exploiting people. (I say petro czars, but I mean the 1%... which is not an american thing... just the american petro czars are so blatant they make a easy example/target)

See now there is a noted difference: those nasty commie overlords (while they pad their bank accounts) are trying to bring a better standard of living to the masses, where the nasty US overlords are trying to perpetuate an underclass that is easily exploited (while they pad their bank accounts) (the padding of the bank accounts is a given, don't matter which team ya play for).
 
Consider too per capita emissions.
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23px-Flag_of_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China.svg.png
China		9.24
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Canada		14.91

US and Australia are worse.
​
en.wikipedia.org

List of countries by carbon dioxide emissions per capita - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
EV uptake is off the charts in China.
 
MacDoc said:
It is not either or.... China is also building and has more nuclear, solar and wind than anyone else.
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I think this is getting lost... China has 5x the population of the US, virtually NO resources except those people AND they have gone through 4 or 5 vastly different styles of government in the last 50 years. Mao wouldn't recognize today's China. They're still in the "throw it at the wall and see what sticks" phase. China is one of the youngest countries on earth, but they're burdened with thousands of years of history... that has nothing to do with today's China.
Today's China has REALLY embraced capitalism, and that's what makes them so scary, they're REALLY good at it. If they take over the world it will be with economics, not a gun.
China also has a TON of hydro electric, more than Quebec and Newfie combined.
 
Evoex said:
Maybe it would be here too if the OEMs and the Government got serious about it.
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And the citizens. How many hundreds of thousands of vehicles drive to the cottage and back every weekend in the summer? Those weekly 3-5 hours of driving solely for recreational purposes probably exceeds the average Chinese citizen total emission. Add in a few hours on a boat which probably exceeds the emissions on the drive up.
 
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bitzz said:
China is burning coal to build a nation, that was agrarian 50 yrs ago. Trying to bring 1.4 billion people out of the stone age. Till their standard of living approaches 50% of american's I'm good with that.
When the US petro czars start to worry about the 12% of US population that lives in poverty I'll stop protesting the US oil czars exploiting people. (I say petro czars, but I mean the 1%... which is not an american thing... just the american petro czars are so blatant they make a easy example/target)

See now there is a noted difference: those nasty commie overlords (while they pad their bank accounts) are trying to bring a better standard of living to the masses, where the nasty US overlords are trying to perpetuate an underclass that is easily exploited (while they pad their bank accounts) (the padding of the bank accounts is a given, don't matter which team ya play for).
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So your whole whinge about American oil has nothing to do with the environment as I expected, its just a rant against america/trump.
 
China also has a TON of hydro electric, more than Quebec and Newfie combined.
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Forgot about their massive hydro facilities. Unlike too many western democracies...China accepted AGW long ago and the need to do something about it.
This was Bejing 20 years ago
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Photographs of smog enveloping Beijing’s Bird’s Nest stadium became one of the defining images of the first decade of this century. China’s annual air pollution deaths reached 2.6 million people a year in 2005.
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In 2024, Beijing's air quality improved to record levels, with 290 days of good air quality. This was a significant improvement from 2013, when there were only 13 days of good air quality.
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Unreal improvement
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Wonder how that compares to Toronto smog days.
 
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A thought: Instead of becoming the 51st state, let's pull a CIA op.
We'll secretly promote civil war in the US, foment unrest on both sides, till the yanks go to war with themselves in civil war, expend a TON of capital from the right AND left, destroying the country and the army trying to save it.
Then WE, ala Joseph Stalin, swoop in and scoop up the good parts... the northeast and the west coast will join us... you know, the GOOD states.
Is Gordon Liddy still around?

If we were America, I could sell this.
 
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GreyGhost said:
And the citizens. How many hundreds of thousands of vehicles drive to the cottage and back every weekend in the summer? Those weekly 3-5 hours of driving solely for recreational purposes probably exceeds the average Chinese citizen total emission. Add in a few hours on a boat which probably exceeds the emissions on the drive up.
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I was referring to EV adoption :ROFLMAO:
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