30 KMH Over, Anyone else? | Page 3 | GTAMotorcycle.com

30 KMH Over, Anyone else?

roadrash said:
So here's a question: can we file a disclosure package request *before* opting in for trial ? I think I read somewhere they refuse to send the package if a court date is not set.

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It takes so damned long to get disclosure that this wouldn't work even if it was possible. Don't you only have 2 weeks or so to request a trial before they assume that you aren't going to challenge the ticket and are therefore guilty? I guess you could request the 3rd option (first appearance or something similar?) to schedule a meeting with the prosecutor and buy some time. At that point, you still may not get disclosure before the meeting as you are outside the GTA and normally they progress at a reasonable speed.
 
hedo2002 said:
Well, firstly, as Rob stated, a speeding ticket of more than 150 km/h does NOT automatically get you a charge of s172. You can be convicted of SPEEDING for any speed.

Now OP. as has been stated, IF you decide to go to trial, (which is YOUR right to do so), you need to be aware of a few things which have been covered, but in many different replies. The crown has three options available to them.

1. Proceed with the 30km/h charge
2. Amend the charge back to the 60 km/h charge
3. Request the court permit the charge to be amended to a s172 charge.

Now, if your found guilty under:

Scenario #1, you will get for insurance purposes a MINOR conviction, and "could" see a 10% hike in your premiums. It really depends upon your insurer some check, some don't some apply the surcharge, some don't.

Scenario #2, you will have a MAJOR conviction registered, and again the consequences will vary by insurer, except NO insurer isn't going to impose the surcharge.

Scenario #3, Again MAJOR conviction, plus you could face a licence suspension, ($150 reinstatement fee). NO insurer will overlook it, and some "may" even drop you, in which case then you must report that you have had insurance cancelled, when shopping for a new policy, (which will mean a significant increase and possibly even mean you have to go to the facility market for insurance, generally 50 - 100% increase over your old premiums).

Now admittedly scenario #3 is fairly unlikely BUT, you need to know that it is an option for the crown. All it takes is a hard assed crown, or they feel you need to be "tuned in"..lol.

Personally, if it were me. I would say the copper cut me a pretty good break, and call it a day.

BUT only you can decide what works best for you. I would be cautious about "delaying" asking for disclosure until 6 weeks prior, as the crown may argue, and you won't know how the JP will rule, that you had months to ask and waited too long. In my experience cases outside the GTA don't experience the same level of delays etc.

Good luck
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I was hoping you would weigh in Hedo.

Could you perhaps elaborate on this scenario as the ticket is not marked "Reduced". If we assume for the sake of argument the cop in his notes did not say 'caught at 60km over, gave reduced ticket, etc' (which we won't know for sure until disclosure). If the OP were to fight it, could the cop just on his 'word' tell the crown he was really doing 160km?
 
Evoex said:
I was hoping you would weigh in Hedo.

Could you perhaps elaborate on this scenario as the ticket is not marked "Reduced". If we assume for the sake of argument the cop in his notes did not say 'caught at 60km over, gave reduced ticket, etc' (which we won't know for sure until disclosure). If the OP were to fight it, could the cop just on his 'word' tell the crown he was really doing 160km?
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I'm not sure if the PO was a man or a woman, used his below for simplicity.

If it's not in his notes, you can beat it in court. There are only 3 ways to determine speed in Ontario, his notes need to indicate which one he used. If his notes say something like "LTI 20-20 300m 160 km/h" you are in trouble. If his notes say "LTI 20-20 300m 120 km/h slowing down" or something similar, they have no proof you were going faster yet alone quantifying how much faster and you might beat a charge for higher speed. You have to be very very careful in court with this approach. The charge is speeding, the speed just sets the level of consequences. I have seen defendants admit to the lower speed in court while trying to fight a higher speed at which point the JP ended the trial and convicted them as they had admitted to breaking the law as charged (I can't remember the consequences, I think JP gave them the lower speed that they had admitted to).
 
GreyGhost said:
I'm not sure if the PO was a man or a woman, used his below for simplicity.

If it's not in his notes, you can beat it in court. There are only 3 ways to determine speed in Ontario, his notes need to indicate which one he used. If his notes say something like "LTI 20-20 300m 160 km/h" you are in trouble. If his notes say "LTI 20-20 300m 120 km/h slowing down" or something similar, they have no proof you were going faster yet alone quantifying how much faster and you might beat a charge for higher speed. You have to be very very careful in court with this approach. The charge is speeding, the speed just sets the level of consequences. I have seen defendants admit to the lower speed in court while trying to fight a higher speed at which point the JP ended the trial and convicted them as they had admitted to breaking the law as charged (I can't remember the consequences, I think JP gave them the lower speed that they had admitted to).
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This is my understanding as well, i'm just curious because i've never heard of this exact scenario before.
 
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GreyGhost said:
It takes so damned long to get disclosure that this wouldn't work even if it was possible. Don't you only have 2 weeks or so to request a trial before they assume that you aren't going to challenge the ticket and are therefore guilty? I guess you could request the 3rd option (first appearance or something similar?) to schedule a meeting with the prosecutor and buy some time. At that point, you still may not get disclosure before the meeting as you are outside the GTA and normally they progress at a reasonable speed.
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Interesting, didn't know that. Sorry about my noob questions, but here's one more: can we ask the cop on the spot (when he's writing the ticket) to show us the evidence (radar gun etc)?

I was watching some YouTube videos, in the US atleast I've seen people ask for proof on the spot.

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roadrash said:
Interesting, didn't know that. Sorry about my noob questions, but here's one more: can we ask the cop on the spot (when he's writing the ticket) to show us the evidence (radar gun etc)?

I was watching some YouTube videos, in the US atleast I've seen people ask for proof on the spot.

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Cops in Canada dont have to show you anything (which I think is complete ********) - the ones that want to give you complete transparency will bring the gun with them and show you personally.
 
markopas said:
Cops in Canada dont have to show you anything (which I think is complete ********) - the ones that want to give you complete transparency will bring the gun with them and show you personally.
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roadrash said:
Interesting, didn't know that. Sorry about my noob questions, but here's one more: can we ask the cop on the spot (when he's writing the ticket) to show us the evidence (radar gun etc)?

I was watching some YouTube videos, in the US atleast I've seen people ask for proof on the spot.

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No harm in asking nicely to see the gun. They are not obligated to show you the gun in Ontario. If you see the gun, make note of the speed and distance shown. If the distance showed 400m and you had just come over the crest of a hill to a cop 100m away, that is a win for you in court (unless the cop writes down something different and lies in court).

Technically there is also a max distance allowed in court (IIRC 400m for radar) but laser max effective distance is much longer (I've never seen an actual distance) so it becomes hard to use that to help your case. Basically the cone becomes so wide from a radar gun that the cop has no idea who was radared (in the past it could be the fastest vehicle or the largest vehicle, I'm not sure if the guns have gotten smart enough to always pick the fastest vehicle.)
 
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No you can't request disclosure pre a trial date being set, (disclosure is to provide the accused with what evidence the crown will be relying upon AT TRIAL), if your not going to trial then you have no need for disclosure. Plus as already stated you have 15 days to choose an option there is NO way for them to provide disclosure in such a short time frame.

The officer not writing on the ticket, that it was a reduced speed, has been ruled on by the courts not to be a fatal flaw. However, the officer, MUST have it recorded somewhere in writing. I know some officer's have been known to write it on the back of the ticket, (court copy), others in their notebook. So the fact that the OP's ticket doesn't indicate it, will not be an issue at trial. The only way, to find out if it is recorded anywhere is via disclosure, at which point the crown already has decided if they are proceeding via scenario 2 or 3. IF it was indeed a reduction, you can rest assured the crown WILL NOT opt for scenario 1.

No, an officer, is NOT required to show you the speed measuring device. If asked politely some will, some won't. In some cases it is simply not practical. A good example of this was last weekend I was West bound on the 401. Just outside of London an OPP SUV was parked on top of an over pass. As you went another 300 feet, there was the first of FIVE cruisers, all with cars stopped for speeding. There is no way the SUV was coming off his honey hole to show the radar/laser to each offender. Likely by the time the first one was pulled over he/she already was radioing the second vehicle info to the waiting units below.

Lidar can determine which vehicle is being tagged, as the officer can target individual vehicles, due the narrow beam, that is why you see them looking through the "sighting scope" when using it. Radar, has a wide beam, and as such it can't be determined which vehicle is being targeted. That is why municipal forces favor LIDAR over radar, not as much traffic in less populated areas so radar can be used.
 
Sorry have been out of commission, had another surgery last week, from my collision last year.

Evoex said:
I was hoping you would weigh in Hedo.

Could you perhaps elaborate on this scenario as the ticket is not marked "Reduced". If we assume for the sake of argument the cop in his notes did not say 'caught at 60km over, gave reduced ticket, etc' (which we won't know for sure until disclosure). If the OP were to fight it, could the cop just on his 'word' tell the crown he was really doing 160km?
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hedo2002 said:
Lidar can determine which vehicle is being tagged, as the officer can target individual vehicles, due the narrow beam, that is why you see them looking through the "sighting scope" when using it. Radar, has a wide beam, and as such it can't be determined which vehicle is being targeted. That is why municipal forces favor LIDAR over radar, not as much traffic in less populated areas so radar can be used.
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You already know, but for the benefit of others, Lidar is a stationary setup and the PO cannot be moving (gun is either on a tripod or handheld). Radar is still used for mobile speed enforcement (eg out the front and back windows of police cars).
 
GreyGhost said:
You already know, but for the benefit of others, Lidar is a stationary setup and the PO cannot be moving (gun is either on a tripod or handheld). Radar is still used for mobile speed enforcement (eg out the front and back windows of police cars).
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I've seen OPP hanging off the side of the SUV's out on the 401 in Scarborough tagging people with lidar... crazy ****.
 
Lots of great info, thanks everyone.

I dont really got the time to be going to Niagara. I'll just do an early resolution and hopefully get a lower fine and/or demerits.

Since im over 75km from the court, apparently I can do this over the phone.
 
Rob MacLennan said:
No, not automatic. The officer has the option of charging for speed or Stunt Driving. Sometimes they charge under both, so that they can "carrot and stick" you.
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Yes, I stand corrected on that one.

And I too would just accept the fact I got cut a major deal on the side of the road, and eat the charge, and maybe ask for a lower fine if it wasn't going to cost me more in the end (travel/lost time at work) vs just paying the original fine.
 
Kevindagul said:
Lots of great info, thanks everyone.

I dont really got the time to be going to Niagara. I'll just do an early resolution and hopefully get a lower fine and/or demerits.

Since im over 75km from the court, apparently I can do this over the phone.
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If the charge was local in Toronto I could give you a good reference to use, saved my *** twice.
 
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