30 KMH Over, Anyone else?

[PrivatePilot]

The thought had crossed my mind to be honest, but im not sure he can get a HTA 172 charge just by reversing the ticket. In my un-educated opinion it would revert back to what i assume is a major speeding ticket.

AFAIK anything 50 over the posted limit or more is automatically 172 territory. I don't think a ticket can be issued for 50 over a posted speed limit without it automatically being a 172.

And yes, mood of the crown and officer certainly can have a huge effect on the outcome. Go spend some time in court - the defendants who present well, and are humble and polite, well, they generally tend to get treated better. The cocky people who show up with a chip on their shoulder and then cop an attitude with the crown, well...they generally end up getting nailed hard.

 

[Brian P]

I'm not sure about this ... HTA 172 is a different charge than speeding; the statute of limitations MIGHT limit the crown's ability to retroactively apply it provided that sufficient time (IIRC 6 months) has passed between the alleged offence date and the court date. Or it might not.

Personally, given that the officer already cut you a MAJOR break, I'd just pay it and thank your lucky stars.

 

[Evoex]

AFAIK anything 50 over the posted limit or more is automatically 172 territory. I don't think a ticket can be issued for 50 over a posted speed limit without it automatically being a 172.

And yes, mood of the crown and officer certainly can have a huge effect on the outcome. Go spend some time in court - the defendants who present well, and are humble and polite, well, they generally tend to get treated better. The cocky people who show up with a chip on their shoulder and then cop an attitude with the crown, well...they generally end up getting nailed hard.

I've been to court thanks.

No one said anything about being cocky or having a chip on their shoulder, no need to read into more then whats been said.

I've reached out to a brother of a friend whose a T.O. cop, we'll see what he says regarding the ticket reverting to 60 over/HTA 172.

 

[Evoex]

I'm not sure about this ... HTA 172 is a different charge than speeding; the statute of limitations MIGHT limit the crown's ability to retroactively apply it provided that sufficient time (IIRC 6 months) has passed between the alleged offence date and the court date. Or it might not.

Personally, given that the officer already cut you a MAJOR break, I'd just pay it and thank your lucky stars.

All said and done this does have merit

 

[GreyGhost]

There is also the possibility that the PO has no good evidence of higher speed and he gave the OP the highest ticket he could win in court along with a story of cutting him a break. The cop couldn't have paced him or timed him over a reasonable distance so that leaves some form or radar or laser as the PO's backup. He may have saw the bike going quickly, but only got 20 over on the gun.

 

[slowbird]

There is also the possibility that the PO has no good evidence of higher speed and he gave the OP the highest ticket he could win in court along with a story of cutting him a break. The cop couldn't have paced him or timed him over a reasonable distance so that leaves some form or radar or laser as the PO's backup. He may have saw the bike going quickly, but only got 20 over on the gun.

I was pulled over once because I went by an unmarked and the officer said "I must have been going 20 over".

He gave me a 15 over ticket and told me "You better not fight this".

In that case I knew he had nothing on me and when I fought it, it was thrown out quickly. I don't know if that's the case with the OP or if he got clocked on a gun.

Did we ever find out if there is an R on the ticket yet?

 

[sevet]

A major speeding ticket is much worse insurance wise (~30% bump instead of 10% or less). That's a lot to lose in my book.

Let's not forget we're talking about a 20% disparity * 3 years (or is it 4?)

 

[Kevindagul]

I was pulled over once because I went by an unmarked and the officer said "I must have been going 20 over".

He gave me a 15 over ticket and told me "You better not fight this".

In that case I knew he had nothing on me and when I fought it, it was thrown out quickly. I don't know if that's the case with the OP or if he got clocked on a gun.

Did we ever find out if there is an R on the ticket yet?

Yeah when I got pulled over he said something along those lines also.

No, I don't see an R on the ticket..

 

[Ana]

Search out Owen Chambers a paralegal in Scarborough, he does traffic stuff. He's a former TPS.0


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[Evoex]

Yeah when I got pulled over he said something along those lines also.

No, I don't see an R on the ticket..

Ohhh..well this changes things!

 

[GreyGhost]

Ohhh..well this changes things!

What changes things? R does not have to be indicated on the ticket for the speed to be able to be raised in court. Ideally it would be, but that is a minor paperwork problem and the courts have consistently allowed speed to be raised whether or not R was indicated on the ticket.

If you were talking about the cop maybe having no evidence of higher speed, that is good to know. Ideally disclosure requests weren't such a gong show so the OP could get the notes and actually see what he is up against.

 

[Evoex]

What changes things? R does not have to be indicated on the ticket for the speed to be able to be raised in court. Ideally it would be, but that is a minor paperwork problem and the courts have consistently allowed speed to be raised whether or not R was indicated on the ticket.

If you were talking about the cop maybe having no evidence of higher speed, that is good to know. Ideally disclosure requests weren't such a gong show so the OP could get the notes and actually see what he is up against.

EDIT: Disregard, i re-read and see the cop 'said' he was going 60 over. Too bad.

Likely still doesn't have tangible evidence.

 

[markopas]

1.. You are going up against OPP
2.. Niagara county?

That's hell of trip you are going to have to make for court and proceedings and anything else court related. There is also a good chance that the officer will be there (it's not like it's Toronto or a major city where the chances are less likely).

Ask for disclosure, get all the facts and build your case. If you have already applied for a trial you have already put your foot through the door so you might as well continue forward - what's the worst that can happen, you get to the court and find out that the police officer is there, just pull the crown to the side and plead it to a lesser deal if the evidence is not in your favour or give it to a paralegal who can postpone your case legitimately since they have to worry about other court cases and are time sensitive to the courts nature and are usually the first ones in line to see the JP over the common civilian.

 

[GreyGhost]

what's the worst that can happen, you get to the court and find out that the police officer is there, just pull the crown to the side and plead it to a lesser deal if the evidence is not in your favour

You have to be careful with this route. The crown is under no obligation to offer you a deal. There have been past GTAM discussions where members have said that reductions were automatically removed when they proceeded to trial. There is a way to prevent this (IIRC you have to pay the ticket before it is your turn and show the JP the receipt so you don't actually go to trial).

 

[markopas]

You have to be careful with this route. The crown is under no obligation to offer you a deal. There have been past GTAM discussions where members have said that reductions were automatically removed when they proceeded to trial. There is a way to prevent this (IIRC you have to pay the ticket before it is your turn and show the JP the receipt so you don't actually go to trial).

You could tell them that the only reason why you decided to take the case court was that you want to make sure that you evidence was legitimate and you were just doing your due diligence, it's your right to understand the law and it's findings.

 

[GreyGhost]

You could tell them that the only reason why you decided to take the case court was that you want to make sure that you evidence was legitimate and you were just doing your due diligence, it's your right to understand the law and it's findings.

True. It is their right to prosecute you for the original speed. It all depends how they feel that day.

 

[Evoex]

You have to be careful with this route. The crown is under no obligation to offer you a deal. There have been past GTAM discussions where members have said that reductions were automatically removed when they proceeded to trial. There is a way to prevent this (IIRC you have to pay the ticket before it is your turn and show the JP the receipt so you don't actually go to trial).

Going forward with the un-reduced speed/fine is the norm when you go to trial. However ive never seen a case of it 'verbally' reduced, i've always seen that R R on those.

 

[Rob MacLennan]

AFAIK anything 50 over the posted limit or more is automatically 172 territory. I don't think a ticket can be issued for 50 over a posted speed limit without it automatically being a 172.

And yes, mood of the crown and officer certainly can have a huge effect on the outcome. Go spend some time in court - the defendants who present well, and are humble and polite, well, they generally tend to get treated better. The cocky people who show up with a chip on their shoulder and then cop an attitude with the crown, well...they generally end up getting nailed hard.

No, not automatic. The officer has the option of charging for speed or Stunt Driving. Sometimes they charge under both, so that they can "carrot and stick" you.

 

[hedo2002]

Well, firstly, as Rob stated, a speeding ticket of more than 150 km/h does NOT automatically get you a charge of s172. You can be convicted of SPEEDING for any speed.

Now OP. as has been stated, IF you decide to go to trial, (which is YOUR right to do so), you need to be aware of a few things which have been covered, but in many different replies. The crown has three options available to them.

1. Proceed with the 30km/h charge
2. Amend the charge back to the 60 km/h charge
3. Request the court permit the charge to be amended to a s172 charge.

Now, if your found guilty under:

Scenario #1, you will get for insurance purposes a MINOR conviction, and "could" see a 10% hike in your premiums. It really depends upon your insurer some check, some don't some apply the surcharge, some don't.

Scenario #2, you will have a MAJOR conviction registered, and again the consequences will vary by insurer, except NO insurer isn't going to impose the surcharge.

Scenario #3, Again MAJOR conviction, plus you could face a licence suspension, ($150 reinstatement fee). NO insurer will overlook it, and some "may" even drop you, in which case then you must report that you have had insurance cancelled, when shopping for a new policy, (which will mean a significant increase and possibly even mean you have to go to the facility market for insurance, generally 50 - 100% increase over your old premiums).

Now admittedly scenario #3 is fairly unlikely BUT, you need to know that it is an option for the crown. All it takes is a hard assed crown, or they feel you need to be "tuned in"..lol.

Personally, if it were me. I would say the copper cut me a pretty good break, and call it a day.

BUT only you can decide what works best for you. I would be cautious about "delaying" asking for disclosure until 6 weeks prior, as the crown may argue, and you won't know how the JP will rule, that you had months to ask and waited too long. In my experience cases outside the GTA don't experience the same level of delays etc.

Good luck

 

[roadrash]

So here's a question: can we file a disclosure package request *before* opting in for trial ? I think I read somewhere they refuse to send the package if a court date is not set.

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