Fire Department bills me for nothing

[meme]

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everyone in this thread is being double billed now.

thankyoucomeagain.

lollercoasterbbq

I lent my SUV out, driver got in an accident. FD showed up and left - didn't block road, manage traffic, get out a fire extinguisher or anything. Nothing was on fire and collison had pushed both vehicles off the road. I get billed.

I can see why people get annoyed. We can't figure out who called the FD as there was no 911 call. Cop happened to drive by seconds later and started scene management.

 

[Emefef]

and I am saying that we don't have a choice when it comes to paying for a gazillion other things, the fact that this bill comes from a fire department instead of a doctor's office or the MVA or the CRA is really the only distinction, and in my view, not a very pertinent one.

Fair enough. I'll stand by my position, though. The fact that we pay for a gazillion other things, some by choice, some by user fees, taxes, and fines, is mostly transparent.
We pay taxes in the municipalities, province and country in which we reside. We pay user fees for certain services. There is some consistency though: Transparency. One of your examples was a passport fee - I might not like it, but I know what it is. If there isn't enough transparency or disclosure in how my tax dollars are spent, I can find it. I can demand it. I can vote for change. There is no transparency or consistency in this billing practice.
You complained about the OSC protecting you from yourself when you don't believe you need the protection. You don't have to accept the protection if you qualify for certain exemptions. If you don't, maybe you don't realize you need the protection. Like being unconscious when someone calls 911 on your behalf. You'll still fund the OSC though, through taxes and user fees. Even if you may not need their protection, the rest of us need to know that as a participant or investor in the capital market there was someone ensuring the rules were followed. Again, those fees are transparent, and you can avoid or reduce them by choosing to invest in different products.
It's not reasonable to have to consider cost before calling for help in an emergency.

I don't think anyone has seriously argued that the FD shouldn't show up when called, or that the service provided is anything less than professional (okay except the posts about cutting stuff up and making fireballs).

 

[infernobuster]

I lent my SUV out, driver got in an accident. FD showed up and left - didn't block road, manage traffic, get out a fire extinguisher or anything. Nothing was on fire and collison had pushed both vehicles off the road. I get billed.

I can see why people get annoyed. We can't figure out who called the FD as there was no 911 call. Cop happened to drive by seconds later and started scene management.

1. If both vehicles were off in the ditch, no need to block the road.
2.It is not our job to manage traffic etc, it is the police that do that.
3. If nothing was on fire, why even bring out a fire extinguisher? If someone was trapped it would of been a whole different story as we have SOG's for that.
4. Fire trucks do a pretty good job of protecting the scene and us, from you meatheads using your cellphones or wanting to see a car accident for the VERY first time in your life.

 

[silverbullet132]

How did they get your information?

My Dad and I were in a van driving behind, and the accident he had was so bad that no one could ask him what happened for over a week (smashed into the guard rail at 120+, embedded the kickstand + 1" chunk of the frame into the guardrail, shattered every bone in his left leg below the knee (vstar 650)). He was on meds for awhile, so the only person the police could talk to was us.

 

[OpenGambit]

Fair enough. I'll stand by my position, though. The fact that we pay for a gazillion other things, some by choice, some by user fees, taxes, and fines, is mostly transparent.
We pay taxes in the municipalities, province and country in which we reside. We pay user fees for certain services. There is some consistency though: Transparency. One of your examples was a passport fee - I might not like it, but I know what it is. If there isn't enough transparency or disclosure in how my tax dollars are spent, I can find it. I can demand it. I can vote for change. There is no transparency or consistency in this billing practice.
You complained about the OSC protecting you from yourself when you don't believe you need the protection. You don't have to accept the protection if you qualify for certain exemptions. If you don't, maybe you don't realize you need the protection. Like being unconscious when someone calls 911 on your behalf. You'll still fund the OSC though, through taxes and user fees. Even if you may not need their protection, the rest of us need to know that as a participant or investor in the capital market there was someone ensuring the rules were followed. Again, those fees are transparent, and you can avoid or reduce them by choosing to invest in different products.
It's not reasonable to have to consider cost before calling for help in an emergency.

I don't think anyone has seriously argued that the FD shouldn't show up when called, or that the service provided is anything less than professional (okay except the posts about cutting stuff up and making fireballs).

I am not going to get into a discussion about securities laws. Its completely not related to this thread.

Secondly, I wasn't saying they are transparent, but in reality its about as transparent as an ambulance fee.
People argued that they shoudln't be charged at all. I am just saying there are many similar fees. If the issue you are taking is that its just not transparent, that is an administrative issue, not a "can we charge this fee issue"

My criticism will be that the jurisdictional boundary determination is bad practice. Either everyone should pay it or no one, but I imagine that was somethign that was demanded by the city of Toronto because they probably felt like they were subsidizing other parts of the GTA, which is not without merit.

 

[meme]

1. If both vehicles were off in the ditch, no need to block the road.
2.It is not our job to manage traffic etc, it is the police that do that.
3. If nothing was on fire, why even bring out a fire extinguisher? If someone was trapped it would of been a whole different story as we have SOG's for that.
4. Fire trucks do a pretty good job of protecting the scene and us, from you meatheads using your cellphones or wanting to see a car accident for the VERY first time in your life.

Exactly - so how or why did the FD show up. No one called 911. When I asked who requested them they said it was procedure. Cop was on scene immediately so a passerby would not have requested FD.

I'm just making a point of help that was not requested/given, yet because they decided to come (small town, dept just down road) I got dinged.

I can just see the anoyance. SF took care of the bill so really didn't hurt my pocket at all.

 

[infernobuster]

Exactly - so how or why did the FD show up. No one called 911. When I asked who requested them they said it was procedure. Cop was on scene immediately so a passerby would not have requested FD.

Someone must of called it in, or the cop did.

Or if it happened so close to a fire station they could see it, that would prompt a response too.

We dont attend every little minor fender bender " due to procedure". Unless a call is placed by someone to 911, via driving by, walking by, a cop, paramedic or someone involved in the accident. ( plus many other ways)
If we are out and about, and see something well stop to ensure everyone is okay. Notify police/tow/etc and carry on ..

 

[meme]

It happened about half a km from the station. Straight road so they may have seen it.

 

[infernobuster]

It happened about half a km from the station. Straight road so they may have seen it.

Perhaps. If you really want to get to the bottom of it, i could find out for you.

 

[OpenGambit]

I don't think anyone has seriously argued that the FD shouldn't show up when called, or that the service provided is anything less than professional (okay except the posts about cutting stuff up and making fireballs).

thats implied when people argue they didnt ask for the service.

 

[meme]

Thanks but nah, didnt really affect me. Just a big bill to swallow if you didn't request/can't afford.

 

[Emefef]

thats implied when people argue they didnt ask for the service.

No, people argued they shouldn't pay because they didn't ask for it or use it. That's not a criticism of any fire department or the professionals that provide the service.
The fees are not as transparent as an ambulance user fee. I said this earlier - it's clear from the response and the debating on this thread that most people were not aware that a fire department could or would bill someone directly for services rendered, like the user fee for a comfy ride to the hospital.
A big part of the debate was about a municipality charging non-residents only. You've now acknowledged that is a bad practice, but does that mean you still support the billing in principal? This came up because the example was a MVA on a provincial hwy through a municipality that charged for the service because the person was non-resident. If your criticism is only of the jurisdictional issue, are you comfortable with each individual paying the bill when emergency services are called? What if there are three victims, how is the bill divided? If insurance companies end up paying all of these bills, what happens when the calls aren't for collisions? Do insurance companies and motorists then subsidize the calls for stabbing and shooting victims?
Cost should not be a factor in deciding whether to call for emergency services, whether it's on or off the road, resident or non-resident of the municipality. The cost of providing equal emergency services to everyone is a cost borne by our society as a whole, not the victims, and certainly not only select victims.

 

[OpenGambit]

No, people argued they shouldn't pay because they didn't ask for it or use it. That's not a criticism of any fire department or the professionals that provide the service.
The fees are not as transparent as an ambulance user fee. I said this earlier - it's clear from the response and the debating on this thread that most people were not aware that a fire department could or would bill someone directly for services rendered, like the user fee for a comfy ride to the hospital.
A big part of the debate was about a municipality charging non-residents only. You've now acknowledged that is a bad practice, but does that mean you still support the billing in principal? This came up because the example was a MVA on a provincial hwy through a municipality that charged for the service because the person was non-resident. If your criticism is only of the jurisdictional issue, are you comfortable with each individual paying the bill when emergency services are called? What if there are three victims, how is the bill divided? If insurance companies end up paying all of these bills, what happens when the calls aren't for collisions? Do insurance companies and motorists then subsidize the calls for stabbing and shooting victims?
Cost should not be a factor in deciding whether to call for emergency services, whether it's on or off the road, resident or non-resident of the municipality. The cost of providing equal emergency services to everyone is a cost borne by our society as a whole, not the victims, and certainly not only select victims.

I knew about the fee, so much for personal experience.


The fact that people argue that they didn't ask for the service implies that they shouldn't have shown up ( thats the part that I quoted) , or there was no service provided (which is wrong). I don't know why you think thats not a criticism of the fire department, because it clearly is. That really shouldn't be contentious.

With respect to the how fees are charged in certain situations, I don't see how that is relevant to anything I have said, which is that user fees are common, they are common for similar services, they exist for things that you don't request or ask for, and on a list of such fees, this fire department bill is very low on the list in amount.

Lastly, I am comfortable with each indivdual paying a portion of the bill when emergency services are called (and yes, its most certainly not the entire amount). I would prefer if no amount was charged given the nature of emergency services. However, given the context of people being completely unreasonble with tax increases, I think the practice is a necessity, and in my view, similar to other necessities such as certain medical procedures, food, government administrative services, while might not be an "emergency", is "necessary" in the regular day to day understanding of the word.

P.S. Spaces between paragraphs are your friend.

 

[Emefef]

I knew about the fee, so much for personal experience.


The fact that people argue that they didn't ask for the service implies that they shouldn't have shown up ( thats the part that I quoted) , or there was no service provided (which is wrong). I don't know why you think thats not a criticism of the fire department, because it clearly is. That really shouldn't be contentious.

With respect to the how fees are charged in certain situations, I don't see how that is relevant to anything I have said, which is that user fees are common, they are common for similar services, they exist for things that you don't request or ask for, and on a list of such fees, this fire department bill is very low on the list in amount.

Lastly, I am comfortable with each indivdual paying a portion of the bill when emergency services are called (and yes, its most certainly not the entire amount). I would prefer if no amount was charged given the nature of emergency services. However, given the context of people being completely unreasonble with tax increases, I think the practice is a necessity, and in my view, similar to other necessities such as certain medical procedures, food, government administrative services, while might not be an "emergency", is "necessary" in the regular day to day understanding of the word.

P.S. Spaces between paragraphs are your friend.

I didn't even try to imply that you didn't know about the fees or that you had no experience. I said it was evident from this thread that many people didn't.

There is a vast difference between arguing that a municipality shouldn't bill me for a service I didn't request or use, and criticizing the people that responded. You're right, that point shouldn't be contentious.

I'll emphasize at this point that of course, as with the entire the argument, this is only my perspective: I don't agree that any of the other fees or taxes you have used as examples are at all comparable to emergency services, especially in the event that the service turned out to be unnecessary (whether or not that was known at the time of the call). Furthermore, the fire department bill is not low on the list of direct fees, if I pay $50 for a passport and $410 for a fire truck.

Lastly, it seems we agree at least that it would be preferable, for emergency services, if no fee was charged.

Where we disagree is on the point of the practice being a necessity. Given that the amount billed is completely outside the control of the person paying for the service, it is different than other direct user fees. Also:
a) the inconsistent application of it across different municipalities;and
b) the (anecdotal) evidence that it is often not collected, or the amount billed is subsequently reduced

can be argued to support the position that it is not, in fact, a necessity, but a simply an attempt to offset what may be a tight budget.

P.S. Thanks for the tip. Maybe I'll be able to make my point more effectively.

 

[Emefef]

I thought about this more on the ride home (saw a fire truck), then went back and read the original post and the one that explained the practice of billing non-residents has been around for a few years.

I'm not against fees absolutely, but In this case it was the fact the OP collided with wildlife. That puts the rider/motorist on the hook for all of their expenses, even though they were not charged with a violation. It is accepted that collisions with animals are unfortunate and sometimes very difficult to avoid. It's my understanding that charges are rarely laid in such cases. With that general approach, it seems wholly unfair to further burden that unfortunate motorist with a bill for a service that was not requested and turned out to be unncecessary just becuase they lived in another municipality.

I would support, however, (and this may be how it works) when there is a personal injury collision, that the motorists responsible (or their insurer) pay some portion of the expense (not a huge fan of no-fault, but that's another discussion). This would be especially true in the case of a criminal offence, and that could be applied in all cases, not just motor vehicles. It's not likely to be collected, but I would still support the principle.

 

[SFer]

Never (you don't need to) give the FD your information. It is none of their business. (you really don't need to give it to EMS or even police in some instances, but if a pt is transported, the hospital will find out who you are. They always do. And they will bill you for the ride. Hospitals bill you for EMS services. I've never understood that but that's how it works)
If they somehow get your information then I would investigate how they got it.
Paramedics would not give fire your info(they've been told not to due to PHIPA which covers patient privacy.) And the police shouldn't either.

Did you get a bill from PD... No
How about EMS... No
FD... Yes
Hmmmm something is wrong there.

Sadly, (good for public, bad for the fire profession) since fires have gone down 20+% in past 20 yrs or so, the FD is scrambling to keep their call volumes up so they can all keep their jobs, (and hire new staff) they now call jump (jump in a call/go on a call) onto police and EMS calls to keep those numbers up. It's called tiered response. And it was a great idea.

FD does a great job when their expertise are needed, fire trucks are great for blocking traffic(but so are MTO vehicles)
Their specialized skills are rarely needed nowadays due to safer houses, safer cars etc... (but when the skills are needed... You're always happy to see them. Kinda like police. For some reason everyone hates PD but I have seen people spit at them one day and hug them the next when they are the ones in need)

 

[CruisnGrrl]

In my limited experience ems only bills when you take a ride. If they show and you refuse their services no bill shows up.

As for the fd being paid regardless since they are working, it costs $$$$ to roll a truck. But it also costs $$$$ for pd and ems to respond (pd usually gets their user fees out of performance awards).

Interesting enough, when my late partner died at home the fd were second to show. They took over from the first responder and ems took over from them. The police took info, confiscated medication and confirmed that there was no foul play. No user fee. Would there have been one if she died walking on the road and fd showed up?

As for paying for dr visit in different provinces, for the health care I've required (mostly scripts for antibiotics), I've never paid. I've used health cards from Ontario, bc and Saskatchewan in bc, Saskatchewan and Ontario respectively. One of them made a house call no charge. oh and I've used a health card from Ontario in Quebec and didn't pay either (Ontario drs in the capital region will often not extend that curtesy to people with qc health cards because qc is slow to pay Ontario drs).

 

[infernobuster]

Never give the FD your information. It is none of their business.
If they somehow get your information then I would investigate how they got it.
Paramedics would not give fire your info, that is against patient privacy act. And the police shouldn't either.

Did you get a bill from PD... No
How about EMS... No
FD... Yes
Hmmmm something is wrong there.

Sadly, since fires have gone down 200% in past 20 yrs or so, the FD is scrambling to keep their call volumes up so they can all keep their jobs, they now call jump onto police and EMS calls to keep those numbers up.

FD does a great job when their expertise are needed, fire trucks are great for blocking traffic(but so are MTO vehicles)
Their specialized skills are rarely needed nowadays due to safer houses, safer cars etc...

LOL. Keep living in your bubble buddy.
I dont know where you get your info, but your wrong on all cases.

Just to shed some light on your incredible sources ..
Fire arrives first 99% of the time on most calls. We are the first ones to get the " so called info" from a scene.
Police and Ambulance coming looking for us since we already have it most of the time.
We exchange info freely among the 3 services. The only road block we hit is when that person hits the hospital. It is than hard to retreive info on a person.

Check with any FD in any city or town and ask them about call volumes. Each one of them will tell you the exact same thing, that call volumes are skyrocketing.
Sure "huge" fires are say a monthly thing, depending on the dept. And yes in general fires have gone down due to better public eductation and prevention programs.

Our specialized skills are used daily, regardless if the public is aware of it or not.
Safer doesnt mean its easier to gain access too.

 

[MacDoc]

Don't think the issue is effectiveness....the issue is charging fees for mandate work inside the jurisdiction.
Just as SAR don't care where you are from if you are in trouble and need them.....so should FD.

Abuse should always be charged. Legitimate use by anyone from anywhere should not. It's a very bad slippery slope to get on to.

 

[RetroGrouch]

Interesting enough, when my late partner died at home the fd were second to show. They took over from the first responder and ems took over from them. The police took info, confiscated medication and confirmed that there was no foul play. No user fee. Would there have been one if she died walking on the road and fd showed up?

No bill because you lived in the same municipality of the FD.

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