Caledon Motorcycle sound level testing - July 6

[kiwi]

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Was on king st a few weeks back with clients on an outdoor patio.
To the knob who rode by 4 times in 20 minutes with your open pipes.You've helped set back motorcycling by years.
My clients and about 15 other patrons were understandably upset.Good job jerk!

I hate it when we can not police ourselves and regrettably have this forced on us. I love the sound of a good motor, some of these pipes are just completely attrocous.
Id venture to say most of these exhaust mods do not improve performance and if they do its only a modest increase.Youd be better off going on a diet.
Which is funny I mention diet, many of these noise makers are weighed down by folks who would crush the BMI scale.

Lol!! Truly always fat guys on cruisers !!!

 

[adri]

Too Lazy to read the whole thread. I suspect that for the most part the only bikes that will fail are the abnoxioulsy loud Harleys (or other cruisers)with the straight through pipes. As I have said before I like the sound of a nice pipe but some of them are just stupid loud and really do infringe on the rights of others. Can you imagine living on the forks and listening to that racket all day ?

You might want to read it. My 250 with modified pipes is over the limit. Imagine stock larger bikes?

 

[Prince]

Ever see a sportbike without a tach?

The law-makers won't know this. All they will know and write in the law is "motorcycle", and thus will have to make provisions that are acceptable for "motorcycles not equipped with an RPM gauge/measuring device." All bikes don't have tachs. I can't see them ripping your bike apart road-side. They are not mechanics. I'm just guessing, but what would make sense is the cop giving you a ticket that will be nullified if you have the bike inspected at an MTO certified garage, and it passes or you make the necessary changes for it to pass. Just like Drive Clean. Again, the majority of bikes that do not have tachs will be choppers. If the chopper has straight-pipes, its not going to pass at any RPM. So you're cooked. If you have a chopper, just stay out of Caledon, and most definitely stay off of HWY 10, away from the Forks, away from Hockley, and or bring donuts and see if you can bribe.

 

[Prince]

Id venture to say most of these exhaust mods do not improve performance and if they do its only a modest increase.Youd be better off going on a diet.Which is funny I mention diet, many of these noise makers are weighed down by folks who would crush the BMI scale.

And you'd be absolutely correct in this assumption. Noise does not equate power. Here's a 2010 GSXR 1000 getting prepped for new cans, air filter, PCV, dyno-tune, and a few hours with the mechanic. Possibly $2500 - $3000 price tag here. The result? 6 HP. You could acheive the same by laying off McDonalds for a week. The bikes leave the factory micro-tuned for optimum performance these days.

2010 GSXR 1000:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWdRd-VeVyI

 

[turbodish]

The law-makers won't know this. All they will know and write in the law is "motorcycle", and thus will have to make provisions that are acceptable for "motorcycles not equipped with an RPM gauge/measuring device." All bikes don't have tachs. I can't see them ripping your bike apart road-side. They are not mechanics. I'm just guessing, but what would make sense is the cop giving you a ticket that will be nullified if you have the bike inspected at an MTO certified garage, and it passes or you make the necessary changes for it to pass.

You are just guessing. They have made allowance for bikes that do not have tachs. They won't need to rip the bike apart. They don't need to be mechanics.

Just 14 Euros plus shipping and you too can be suitably equipped to measure RPM on a tach-less bike with no need to tear apart pieces or hook into the bike's wiring.
http://www.treysit.com/16.html

 

[frekeyguy]

anyone going to this tomorrow??

 

[Splash]

The law-makers won't know this. All they will know and write in the law is "motorcycle", and thus will have to make provisions that are acceptable for "motorcycles not equipped with an RPM gauge/measuring device."

been answered already....

 

[Prince]

You are just guessing. They have made allowance for bikes that do not have tachs. They won't need to rip the bike apart. They don't need to be mechanics.Just 14 Euros plus shipping and you too can be suitably equipped to measure RPM on a tach-less bike with no need to tear apart pieces or hook into the bike's wiring.http://www.treysit.com/16.html

You quote the most minute details, clauses, and sub-clauses of the law on here all the time. Do you really think a device that measures "vibration", "with great accuracy" is going to pass in a court-of-law as a tachometer equivalent? Those words would have to change to "precise accuracy" and the unit would have to be certified to meet American/Canadian standards.

 

[turbodish]

You quote the most minute details, clauses, and sub-clauses of the law on here all the time. Do you really think a device that measures "vibration", "with great accuracy" is going to pass in a court-of-law as a tachometer equivalent? Those words would have to change to "precise accuracy" and the unit would have to be certified to meet American/Canadian standards.

For a bylaw offence or even for an HTA offence should the province incorporate noise testing into the HTA? Yes, such a device would qualify as a suitable measuring device.

The Treysit sirometer is already in common use at motorcycle meets. In the hands of a qualified operator it is accurate within 1% or 2% accuracy. That's a range of plus or minus 20 to 40 rpm at 2000 rpm, which is negligible as far as any causing and significant difference in exhaust note.

That's the same accuracy or better than you get from approved radar equipment or certified and calibrated police speedometers used for pacing, and the courts are quite happy to accept those results as a basis for conviction.

The Treysit should have no problem being seen as accurate enough to provide reasonable accuracy sufficient to support a bylaw conviction.

 

[backmarkerducati]

I could very well be wrong but the tach may be a loophole in the law. Since the tach is not a safety item (not required is my understanding) and it is electrical on modern bikes you could always hide a switch the shuts it down. If they stop you kill your tach... No way they can just judge RPM given the vast differences in motorcycle engines, their firing sequence and their overall mechanical sound (say comparing a V4 big bang/odd firing order VS inline 4).

As for the Sirometer, my guess is it will work but has it achieved judicial notice? Will the operator be able to measure 1, 2, 3, 4, 6 cylinder machines with it (do they even know how)? Can they find a good measurement spot on a full faring bike? What do items like balance shafts do to it (it measures vibration after-all). Again uneven, odd or concurrent firing order may be an issue? When and how was it last calibrated? Can this all be used to fog the testimony in court? I am no sirometer expert but having just read up on how to use it I think any of the above are valid points.

Of course they can use an induction pickup on a plug wire and an old fashion tach, if they can get access to the wires.

BTW, if you have a tach that is fed from the coil (measures coil "pulses") I can design a simple circuit that will make it read half. Of course that just makes it worse...

 

[Prince]

For a bylaw offence or even for an HTA offence should the province incorporate noise testing into the HTA? Yes, such a device would qualify as a suitable measuring device. The Treysit sirometer is already in common use at motorcycle meets. In the hands of a qualified operator it is accurate within 1% or 2% accuracy. That's a range of plus or minus 20 to 40 rpm at 2000 rpm, which is negligible as far as any causing and significant difference in exhaust note.That's the same accuracy or better than you get from approved radar equipment or certified and calibrated police speedometers used for pacing, and the courts are quite happy to accept those results as a basis for conviction. The Treysit should have no problem being seen as accurate enough to provide reasonable accuracy sufficient to support a bylaw conviction.

I'll call BS on that one. I am a licensed mechanic. That's a vibrational device. It'll change pitch wherever you put it on an engine. What about a triple? An unbalanced engine that has a counter-balance shaft? What if an engine has a knock in it? Loose mains? Even pinging will throw that device off. It's not a tachometer, and cannot be used as one, especially when it comes to law.

I guess we will find out tomorrow what this law will look like. One other problem I for-see is when it comes to municipal by-law infractions, any given city must post them on their signage. Since this isn't an Ontario-wide law, Caledon will most definitely have to post signs stating there is a "noise limit in effect." That'll cost them a few bucks. Signs aren't cheap.

Their best bet to keep costs down would be to run free clinics at truck weigh-in stations, like the one on HWY 10. Lots of room, have an MTO mechanic or two on hand to measure decibel levels, and give "suggestions" to people to correct their vehicles. Show them areas where the residents are upset. When you give people the freedom to do things, rather than slam them with yet another law, chances are they will comply anyway. I don't think anybody wants to upset the people that live along the Forks of The Credit. Just informing most that they are should be enough. Now you'll get people running for sound laws too.

Since Ontario cops just don't "get" that "asking" the public and "telling" the public are two entirely different things and usually the former is more successful, I'll start the process of rebellion:

What would be a good warning hand gesture for "OPP noise trap ahead?"

 

[AFJ]

I'll call BS on that one. I am a licensed mechanic. That's a vibrational device. It'll change pitch wherever you put it on an engine. What about a triple? An unbalanced engine that has a counter-balance shaft? What if an engine has a knock in it? Loose mains? Even pinging will throw that device off. It's not a tachometer, and cannot be used as one, especially when it comes to law.

I guess we will find out tonight what this law will look like.

.

 

[Prince]

I have used a sirometer to measure engine speed, on a variety of motorcycles. It works surprisingly well for such a simple device. Despite your qualifications as a mechanic, the sirometer operates on a sound technical principle.By the way, the testing session up in Caledon is on Wednesday. To-day is Tuesday.AFJ

I'm sure you have. And I'm sure it's given you a rough estimate of engine speed. But when it comes to law, it's not going to cut it. "Officer, can you say with certainty that at 2000 RPM, my clients vehicle exceeded the allowable decibel level?" The cop has to be able to answer "yes" to that question. Using a sirometer, he'd be lying. And I would be a witness to the multitude of reasons why.

 

[backmarkerducati]

I have used a sirometer to measure engine speed, on a variety of motorcycles. It works surprisingly well for such a simple device. Despite your qualifications as a mechanic, the sirometer operates on a sound technical principle.

By the way, the testing session up in Caledon is on Wednesday. To-day is Tuesday.

AFJ

As you have used the device I am interested in how the device handles different engine configurations and firing orders, not calling you out I am just fascinated by the device. The mechanical aspect of this device is very interesting but I cannot get my head around how the device would handle an odd fire engine (uneven firing order). Engines with balance shafts. Engines with a big bang firing order (two or more cylinders firing at exactly the same time or very close in time).

I can see how you could tune the device to the application but what if you are using it blind so to speak.

 

[AFJ]

As you have used the device I am interested in how the device handles different engine configurations and firing orders, not calling you out I am just fascinated by the device. The mechanical aspect of this device is very interesting but I cannot get my head around how the device would handle an odd fire engine (uneven firing order). Engines with balance shafts. Engines with a big bang firing order (two or more cylinders firing at exactly the same time or very close in time).

I can see how you could tune the device to the application but what if you are using it blind so to speak.

.

 

[frekeyguy]

Permitted levels are 92 dBA at idle, 96 dBA at 2000rpm for 1,2,5 and 6 cylinder motorcycles and 100 dBA for 3 or 4 cylinder motorcycles. Sound measurement is at a 45 degree angle to the direction line of the silencer and 50 cm distance from the silencer outlet.

ummm...my bike idles at 2000rpm!

 

[turbodish]

I'll call BS on that one. I am a licensed mechanic. That's a vibrational device. It'll change pitch wherever you put it on an engine. What about a triple? An unbalanced engine that has a counter-balance shaft? What if an engine has a knock in it? Loose mains? Even pinging will throw that device off. It's not a tachometer, and cannot be used as one, especially when it comes to law.

You claim to be a licensed mechanic, not a lawyer. I don't think you have a clue as to what is considered acceptable evidence in law, especially when it comes to regulatory law.

I guess we will find out tomorrow what this law will look like. One other problem I for-see is when it comes to municipal by-law infractions, any given city must post them on their signage. Since this isn't an Ontario-wide law, Caledon will most definitely have to post signs stating there is a "noise limit in effect." That'll cost them a few bucks. Signs aren't cheap.

This part just confirms that you don't know how the laws work. There are a whole raft of various bylaws in any given municipality. The only ones you'll generally see posted anywhere are those pertaining to parking. Does that now mean the dozens and even hundreds of other bylaws are somehow not enforceable?

Their best bet to keep costs down would be to run free clinics at truck weigh-in stations, like the one on HWY 10. Lots of room, have an MTO mechanic or two on hand to measure decibel levels, and give "suggestions" to people to correct their vehicles. Show them areas where the residents are upset. When you give people the freedom to do things, rather than slam them with yet another law, chances are they will comply anyway. I don't think anybody wants to upset the people that live along the Forks of The Credit. Just informing most that they are should be enough. Now you'll get people running for sound laws too.

I see you haven't read some of the words of posters in this very same forum. They simply don't care what people think whether it pertains to their speed in front of other's homes, their exhaust noise, where they park, or in the case of some of those who ride off-road, if the owner even posts their property against trespass by off-roaders.

The reason we get laws like this is because of ignorant self-absorbed dirtbags who simply don't care. Belfountain has had this sign in place for years asking for consideration, but with scant noticeable effect. http://maps.google.ca/maps?q=belfou...id=DSpqVioe4lELvA8u3G3kiA&cbp=12,230.5,,2,0.4
"Please watch for our children." "Please drive slowly and quiety". The ignorant self-absorbed dirtbags among us grossly ignored it. Now you have a new bylaw to add some teeth to that sign. That's the only way to deal with an unfortunately large segment of riders who think their "rights" trump the rights of others.

Since Ontario cops just don't "get" that "asking" the public and "telling" the public are two entirely different things and usually the former is more successful, I'll start the process of rebellion:

What would be a good warning hand gesture for "OPP noise trap ahead?"

You can ask dirtbags over and over again in the nicest way, and they still won't care. The cops know that and most reasoning people also know it. It's for those people that you need to keep a stick in hand to deal with.

That's what this new noise bylaw is, a stick in hand. Look for it to spread to other areas real fast once those places see how it works in Caledon.

 

[AFJ]

anyone going to this tomorrow??

.

 

[Brian P]

Prince, if you are so hell-bent on the opinion that the sirometer is not accurate, perhaps you would care to show up with an example of an engine for which it gives an incorrect result, and demonstrate this inaccuracy by some suitable means. If you can DEMONSTRATE a situation in which it gives an incorrect result then MAYBE someone might listen to you.

Here's some help. I do not know how that device operates. A 4-cylinder 4-stroke engine that is exceptionally well counterbalanced and has exceptionally good cylinder-to-cylinder load balance might exhibit a primary vibration frequency twice that of the crankshaft rotation speed (two firings per revolution, and with exceptional mechanical balance and exceptionally good cylinder-to-cylinder balance there are no significant remaining once-per-revolution vibrations remaining). A Gold Wing engine might be another good test case. The flat-six arrangement has very good mechanical balance and gives a very uniform crank rotation speed. But, it doesn't have the twice-per-revolution firing and crank-rotation-speed irregularity that an inline-four has.

I have a funny feeling that for the engines that this gizmo is primarily going to be used on (H-D 45-degree V-twins) it will have NO difficulty whatsoever. Those engines have an irregular firing order that repeats at half crank rotation speed but are extremely UNbalanced mechanically, and that is a once-per-revolution unbalance.

Remember, though, that the idle-speed noise measurement is not dependent on knowing the RPM. If it's making more than 92 dB with the engine running but nobody touching the throttle, that's enough for a non-compliance right there ... the RPM doesn't matter, so the means by which it is measured doesn't matter.

 

[kiwi]

only been to the Forks twice, and the one time I stopped for a coffee, I had to repeat my order as the noise from passing accountants and lawyers with straight pipes blasting away from the stop sign was so loud.

Too bad this had to be made a law, but I really hate inconsiderate people... in all areas of our lives.. so many people are self absorbed.

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