What's a Sanctuary Province and how much does it cost?

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Type17 said:
If your mom was a refugee then she was not here “legally”. Your mother’s citinzenship and yours by extensions IS a handout by a government that offered her paperwork after she was already here.

Im a legal immigrant, my parents and myself had visas to come here while still in our own country.

Denying people emergency healthcare is not “protecting what you have”; the cost is borderline insignificant... its just cheap greed masquerading as concern for the public coffers.
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She came to the country from a unfrendly nation . When she arrived she ask for political asylum . Not jumping the unprotected border from a free nation . She was not shopping like people crossing in Quebec .

We got no hand outs . She applied and was accepted all legal . In the mean time worked menial jobs to make ends meet . To make enough to bring me here .

You waited for you visas to come here . With today's situation with illegal border jumpers . You visa would be delayed with a the back log being created .

The medical system is strained . Your paying attention to the election ? Everyone is reporting hospitals over capacity . Medical system is in crisis .

This is reality not fantasy . Eventually we need to pay for illegal border jumpers . Look at the mess Europe has . Your want the same here ?

Without a protected border you don't have a country .
 
pfbmgd said:
She came to the country from a unfrendly nation . When she arrived she ask for political asylum . Not jumping the unprotected border from a free nation . She was not shopping like people crossing in Quebec .

We got no hand outs . She applied and was accepted all legal . In the mean time worked menial jobs to make ends meet . To make enough to bring me here .

You waited for you visas to come here . With today's situation with illegal border jumpers . You visa would be delayed with a the back log being created .

The medical system is strained . Your paying attention to the election ? Everyone is reporting hospitals over capacity . Medical system is in crisis .

This is reality not fantasy . Eventually we need to pay for illegal border jumpers . Look at the mess Europe has . Your want the same here ?

Without a protected border you don't have a country .
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All refugees are from an unfriendly nation or some war torn country. If you seek asylum in the US and you’re denied, you’re still a refugee until you’re granted asylum by some other country. I don’t know that there are so many people wih US papers that are living and working illegally in Canada like youre suggesting is happening in Quebec.

Illegal economic migration is a different thing, i dont support an open door policy, but if theyre already here, i still think it’s a duty for us to offer emergency treatment if required. It’s abnormal to me that in any first world country we’d just let people die over papers.

The medical system in Canada was always “strained” in that we had shortage of hospital rooms and doctors. Im not convinced that you’ll fix the strain by denying ambulances to a few thousand illegals. This isn’t where waste is in government or the medical system. This is just being penny wise and pound stupid.

In any case, this isnt a debate about borders; nobody’s suggesting we take them down or let just everyone through. The question is just “should we offer basic emergency services, like police, ambulance, and fire service, to ALL people in Canada, regardless of immigration status. If you believe that someone, even an illegal immigrant, should not be rescued from a fire in a Canadian city because of the few extra dollars it’ll cost you per year in taxes, this is all i need to know about you.
 
Type17 said:
All refugees are from an unfriendly nation or some war torn country. If you seek asylum in the US and you’re denied, you’re still a refugee until you’re granted asylum by some other country. I don’t know that there are so many people wih US papers that are living and working illegally in Canada like youre suggesting is happening in Quebec.

Illegal economic migration is a different thing, i dont support an open door policy, but if theyre already here, i still think it’s a duty for us to offer emergency treatment if required. It’s abnormal to me that in any first world country we’d just let people die over papers.

The medical system in Canada was always “strained” in that we had shortage of hospital rooms and doctors. Im not convinced that you’ll fix the strain by denying ambulances to a few thousand illegals. This isn’t where waste is in government or the medical system. This is just being penny wise and pound stupid.

In any case, this isnt a debate about borders; nobody’s suggesting we take them down or let just everyone through. The question is just “should we offer basic emergency services, like police, ambulance, and fire service, to ALL people in Canada, regardless of immigration status. If you believe that someone, even an illegal immigrant, should not be rescued from a fire in a Canadian city because of the few extra dollars it’ll cost you per year in taxes, this is all i need to know about you.
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I`n not sure you believe what you write or understand the situation . There are thousands of illegal economic immigrants coming here .They are crossing in in Quebec . They are screwing the people that want to come here legally . If that`s cool with you ok then . No one is denying ambulance or fire services . What we should be doing is deporting . Speed up the process . Anyone coming from the US should be returned immediately . Temporary crossings should be closed and people sent back .
 
pfbmgd said:
I`n not sure you believe what you write or understand the situation . There are thousands of illegal economic immigrants coming here .They are crossing in in Quebec . They are screwing the people that want to come here legally . If that`s cool with you ok then . No one is denying ambulance or fire services . What we should be doing is deporting . Speed up the process . Anyone coming from the US should be returned immediately . Temporary crossings should be closed and people sent back .
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Sounds like a logical idea to me to me.
 
pfbmgd said:
I`n not sure you believe what you write or understand the situation . There are thousands of illegal economic immigrants coming here .They are crossing in in Quebec . They are screwing the people that want to come here legally . If that`s cool with you ok then . No one is denying ambulance or fire services . What we should be doing is deporting . Speed up the process . Anyone coming from the US should be returned immediately . Temporary crossings should be closed and people sent back .
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Yet that's what you're arguing against; emergency care.

"we will never withhold basic life-saving services from undocumented people"

You seem to think this is about things like cancer treatment. No one said refugees would get cancer treatment!

Having said that, I'm not sure why holding them in jails is such a problem while there's this spike in refugees. Obviously that can't be a long term solution.

Also, I don't know why they're not sent back to the US. Do you know?
 
Scuba Steve said:
Minimum wage increase was stupid and screwed up a already tight labour market why would you work in manufacturing and get dirty when you can make 14 soon becoming 15 an hour anywhere. As an employer in the manufacturing industry in Ontario there are no employees available and every company i know of is struggling to find anyone with any skill or motivation to work. I have actually considering shutting down the part of the company that needs skilled workers due to the lack of available employees. Personally i know of thousands of unfilled reasonably well paying job openings in the private sector.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
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Steve, I hear you. In 2012 I was paying unskilled labor $16-17hr because that's what I had to pay for a dependable workforce. I sold my small business in 2012, the new owners couldn't take the Ontario tax & regulations so they ordered up 4 x 53 footers and moved the plant to PA. A dozen good paying jobs gone forever. Operational savings on regulation, tax and labor paid of the purchase price of the business in 3 years.
 
Type17 said:
All refugees are from an unfriendly nation or some war torn country. If you seek asylum in the US and you’re denied, you’re still a refugee until you’re granted asylum by some other country. I don’t know that there are so many people wih US papers that are living and working illegally in Canada like youre suggesting is happening in Quebec.
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The issue at hand is the exploitation of a loophole in the refugee process. Refugees are afforded the right to claim asylum only at the first country they enter, meaning if a refugee arrives in the USA, they are required to seek asylum there. Should they be denied, they are deported and entitled to make their way to an adjacent safe country to reapply.

Refugees are exploiting a loophole by entering Canada at unofficial crossings (such as farmers’ fields at border towns in MB and QC.) Illegal entry is a crime, they are arrested for illegal entry, and then turned over to Canadian Border Services. Because of the crime, they are held in Canada as opposed to being denied entry and advised to apply as refugees in the first country, the USA - this is the loophole they exploit. If they are not found to be a threat to Canada, most of them are released and can begin the process of applying for refugee status here.

The challenge is the illegal entrants gum up the system for refugees who enter legally -- and in many cases exploiting a loophole by committing a crime advances the process ahead of those who follow the rules.
Type17 said:
Illegal economic migration is a different thing, i dont support an open door policy, but if theyre already here, i still think it’s a duty for us to offer emergency treatment if required. It’s abnormal to me that in any first world country we’d just let people die over papers.

The medical system in Canada was always “strained” in that we had shortage of hospital rooms and doctors. Im not convinced that you’ll fix the strain by denying ambulances to a few thousand illegals. This isn’t where waste is in government or the medical system. This is just being penny wise and pound stupid.
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I agree that we ought to provide basic services and care for people whether they are here legally or not. I do think our obligations are limited, we should provide immediate treatment to to stabilize and prepare an illegal to travel to home for followup and rehab. I don't think you ought to be able to come to Canada as an illegal immigration with the explicit goal of getting free health care.
 
fastar1 said:
Yet that's what you're arguing against; emergency care.

"we will never withhold basic life-saving services from undocumented people"

You seem to think this is about things like cancer treatment. No one said refugees would get cancer treatment!

Having said that, I'm not sure why holding them in jails is such a problem while there's this spike in refugees. Obviously that can't be a long term solution.

Also, I don't know why they're not sent back to the US. Do you know?
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You truly have no idea what is going on or what I`m saying . I never said withhold any emergency care . If they refugee is here he will get cancer treatment ahead of you . Why because they are under the care of the government . Holding criminals from other countries is wrong ? Many detained have committed crimes in Canada . Many have extensive criminal records back home . Which is what makes them inadmissible to Canada .

They are not sent back due to our PM . Plus people that support him . Nuf said over and out .
 
pfbmgd said:
You truly have no idea what is going on or what I`m saying . I never said withhold any emergency care . If they refugee is here he will get cancer treatment ahead of you . Why because they are under the care of the government . Holding criminals from other countries is wrong ? Many detained have committed crimes in Canada . Many have extensive criminal records back home . Which is what makes them inadmissible to Canada .

They are not sent back due to our PM . Plus people that support him . Nuf said over and out .
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Thats patently false. Treatments for critical diseases at the moment are not determined by your immigration status; your priority is set by the severity of the case. Youre talking purely out of your ***. The PM is entirely irrelevant in this discussion.

Youve moved the goal posts a bunch of times in this discussion. First you started by saying that what do your papers matter if illegals can come here and profit for free, then you started arguing against emergency services, now youre saying the refugees have criminal records. I can tell you you’re talking nothing but nonsense about criminals staying in canada due to the PM when i have first hand experience with acquantances that overstayed their visas and were deported for a DUI.
 
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pfbmgd said:
You truly have no idea what is going on or what I`m saying . I never said withhold any emergency care . If they refugee is here he will get cancer treatment ahead of you . Why because they are under the care of the government . Holding criminals from other countries is wrong ? Many detained have committed crimes in Canada . Many have extensive criminal records back home . Which is what makes them inadmissible to Canada .

They are not sent back due to our PM . Plus people that support him . Nuf said over and out .
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In post 5 you disagreed with the definition of 'sanctuary cities' posted by JavaFan. That definition included emergency services, not cancer treatment. That means you disagreed that refugees should be provided emergency services, and it means you're the only one who mentioned cancer treatment. It's right there in black and white http://www.gtamotorcycle.com/vbforu...does-it-cost&p=2568977&viewfull=1#post2568977

The rest of your post continues to make no sense.

In particular you seem to think Immigration & Citizenship looks at a refugee claimant's case, then decides whether or not to send them back based on who's PM at the time. C'mon, at least try a little or just don't play at all.
 
Mad Mike said:
The issue at hand is the exploitation of a loophole in the refugee process. Refugees are afforded the right to claim asylum only at the first country they enter, meaning if a refugee arrives in the USA, they are required to seek asylum there. Should they be denied, they are deported and entitled to make their way to an adjacent safe country to reapply.

Refugees are exploiting a loophole by entering Canada at unofficial crossings (such as farmers’ fields at border towns in MB and QC.) Illegal entry is a crime, they are arrested for illegal entry, and then turned over to Canadian Border Services. Because of the crime, they are held in Canada as opposed to being denied entry and advised to apply as refugees in the first country, the USA - this is the loophole they exploit. If they are not found to be a threat to Canada, most of them are released and can begin the process of applying for refugee status here.

The challenge is the illegal entrants gum up the system for refugees who enter legally -- and in many cases exploiting a loophole by committing a crime advances the process ahead of those who follow the rules.
I agree that we ought to provide basic services and care for people whether they are here legally or not. I do think our obligations are limited, we should provide immediate treatment to to stabilize and prepare an illegal to travel to home for followup and rehab. I don't think you ought to be able to come to Canada as an illegal immigration with the explicit goal of getting free health care.
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I agree, I do think there is a problem and they do gum up the system. In an ideal world, these people would be sent back to a safe, first country. I think it's an ethical gray area though depending on the place they get sent back to. Due to current politics, sending a refugee to the US where they may get denied asylum, could potentially be a death sentence to someone with a legitimate claim at asylum. I'm not sure what the best solution is here.

I agree with your second point as well. I'm only referring to basic emergency services. As far as I know, you can't get free health care without an OHIP or equivalent card, which an undocumented migrant wouldn't have. They may treat the person if there are extraordinary circumstances, but my understanding is that they attempt to recover the cost of the treatment. In any case, my experience is anecdotal; a US friend of mine was charged for treatment in Kitchener when he went to a clinic.
 
fastar1 said:
In post 5 you disagreed with the definition of 'sanctuary cities' posted by JavaFan. That definition included emergency services, not cancer treatment. That means you disagreed that refugees should be provided emergency services, and it means you're the only one who mentioned cancer treatment. It's right there in black and white http://www.gtamotorcycle.com/vbforu...does-it-cost&p=2568977&viewfull=1#post2568977

The rest of your post continues to make no sense.

In particular you seem to think Immigration & Citizenship looks at a refugee claimant's case, then decides whether or not to send them back based on who's PM at the time. C'mon, at least try a little or just don't play at all.
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Many people in this threat are clueless at what is going on . I`m out there no point in discussion with people that are unaware of the situation . Good luck in 5 years when all this comes back to haunt Canada .
 
Type17 said:
I agree, I do think there is a problem and they do gum up the system. In an ideal world, these people would be sent back to a safe, first country. I think it's an ethical gray area though depending on the place they get sent back to. Due to current politics, sending a refugee to the US where they may get denied asylum, could potentially be a death sentence to someone with a legitimate claim at asylum. I'm not sure what the best solution is here.
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The problem is the majority of asylum seekers are in fact not entitled to asylum -- they are sent home by Canada. If they rightfully apply in the USA where they land, it happens quicker because the US is more efficient at processing unworthy applicants. The US doesn't force refugees to do any more than leave the USA -- failed applicants are entitled to reapply legally in Canada, however the criteria is the so similar the the USA it's very likely the outcome is the same.

The real solution is to redo the regulations and close the 'official border crossing' loophole. Asylum seekers who are caught should be returned to a border crossing where they get the same process as anyone legally seeking asylum.

Where the rubber hits the road is cost. A very high percentage of illegal crossing refugees are returned -- they're not coming from war torn countries. When an asylum seeker crosses at an official crossing, they are returned to the USA, case closed. The US bears the cost of determining whether they are in fact refugees AND the cost of sending them home if not. If they make it to Canada illegally, Canada bears the costs of return or deportation to their homeland. It's about $15,000 for the average claimant (shelter, medical, processing, return transportation) and about double that for an escorted deportation.
Type17 said:
I agree with your second point as well. I'm only referring to basic emergency services. As far as I know, you can't get free health care without an OHIP or equivalent card, which an undocumented migrant wouldn't have. They may treat the person if there are extraordinary circumstances, but my understanding is that they attempt to recover the cost of the treatment. In any case, my experience is anecdotal; a US friend of mine was charged for treatment in Kitchener when he went to a clinic.
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The federal gov't issues undocumented immigrants with a federal insurance program, Interim Federal Health Program (IFHP) that covers medical, prescription and emergency dental (anything that causes pain). This covers all legal and illegal immigrants until they are qualified into the health care program in the province where they reside. Illegals and those under deportation proceedings are not entitled by rights to this program however the current gov't makes no distinctions so everyone gets access.
 
Based on numbers....

Estimated 100,000 "illegals" based on current government numbers, let's double this to step up the outrage... So 200,000.

Current population is about 36M, so 0.56% (using the doubled outrage numbers)...

Assuming equal system use (legal vs illegal) it costs an extra 0.56% (using double the stated numbers--for add outrage).

Odds are they do not use things like healthcare the same (they use it less) because sanctuary or not they want to stay under the radar. But 0.56% is totally outrageous is it not????
 
most of the border jumpers into Quebec are Haitians
who have been in the US under TPS - Temporary Protected Status

they are coming as it's been rumoured Haiti would be taken off the TPS list
they cross in Quebec as the border is difficult to secure, and because they are francophones
and there is an existing, large Haitian community there

an arrangement needs to be made with the US to take their documented refugees back
and the fact of large refugees camps at the border crossing indicates the border is secure
we don't need a wall or any racist rantings about migrants, this is a diplomatic problem

most asylum seekers to Ontario arrive via Pearson airport
to avoid that we need to change up our visitor visa program

as for the NDP's pledge to make Ontario an asylum province
election rhetoric, we are doing these things anyway
it is the CANADIAN way....don't like it, leave
take your MAGA BS out with you
 
Scuba Steve said:
As an employer in the manufacturing industry in Ontario there are no employees available and every company i know of is struggling to find anyone with any skill or motivation to work. I have actually considering shutting down the part of the company that needs skilled workers due to the lack of available employees. Personally i know of thousands of unfilled reasonably well paying job openings in the private sector.
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Really now? What sort of employees are you looking for/referring to? Be specific.
 
backmarkerducati said:
Based on numbers....

Estimated 100,000 "illegals" based on current government numbers, let's double this to step up the outrage... So 200,000.

Current population is about 36M, so 0.56% (using the doubled outrage numbers)...

Assuming equal system use (legal vs illegal) it costs an extra 0.56% (using double the stated numbers--for add outrage).

Odds are they do not use things like healthcare the same (they use it less) because sanctuary or not they want to stay under the radar. But 0.56% is totally outrageous is it not????
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I'm not sure of the point you are trying to make. Cost is a factor however it's not the most critical or the only factor. Illegal crossings overwhelm a system designed to care for real refugees - the ones who need help the most are congested by the cheaters. Why should a real refugee suffer most by following the proper path?

Illegal immigrants are also far more likely to be be inadmissible based on their prior backgrounds or actual refugee status. They end up being an unnecessary administrative and financial burden.
 
I dont buy it, give me some specifics and ill find you your employees, for a minor finders fee ofcourse.

Unless there is no shortage of wrench swingers with common sense.
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