What came first, the chicken or the stingray hide (sportbike glove topic)

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dr_sarcasm said:
Oh. Dear.

How has this not gone to court yet (i.e. potential libel in one instance, versus copyright/trademark(?) infringement stemming from idea theft on the other)?
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Not sure how easy it is for an american company to go after a canadian one. Regardless heroic is a small company and a drawn out legal battle is probably not in their best interest. One of these companies has clearly ripped off the other, people can decide on their own who they think that is. I'm not affiliated with heroic in any way other then the fact that i think they have great product and i will be buying gloves from them in the near future.

When i first saw the picture on facebook i actually thought the guy was wearing a set of heroics, so when i commented nice gloves his response was "Best gloves you can get! VR Pro by Velocity!" I know personally i'd much rather support the person who put the time and money into R&Ding what in my opinion is the best glove on the market, so if i can do something to point out the kind of person people are doing business with, maybe there wont be any need for a court battle. Especially considering you can get the heroics for 250 on sale right now.
 
I like my Velocity gloves and don't care if they're similar or not. They protect me and are in my price range which Heroic is definitely not.
 
Too funny Doug!
 
Without going into detail about IP law. It is very very difficult to patent functionality. For example, Lego lost against megablocks. (sp?)

We don't even know if there is a patent.

This is not a copyright/trademark issue - Copyright is for print, while trademarks are like branding.
 
OpenGambit said:
Without going into detail about IP law. It is very very difficult to patent functionality. For example, Lego lost against megablocks. (sp?)

We don't even know if there is a patent.

This is not a copyright/trademark issue - Copyright is for print, while trademarks are like branding.
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Thanks OG on clarifying the copyright/trademark literal meanings; was feeling lazy and threw out my ideas without actually doing any fact-checking - mea culpa (of course, it doesn't stem the fact that I look like a chimp for throwing out big words without understanding them...damn me...someone toss me a banana...).

Re: patent - Yeah, was also throwing that out there trying to understand why, if one existed, how the original owner of the idea/design had let it go on so long (I guess it could boil down to money, as mmmnaked posted).

Re: Lego vs. Megabloks - I remember that case, and a good point. Guess this is one of those cases that will be decided by one's own sense of ethics (morals?) towards what they should and should not do with regards to both businesses.

Pity, for both businesses. :(
 
Nothing comes of this in the end. All that the original maker can do is strive for product perfection, better service, and further innovation. That's how good companies stay ahead of their knock-off competition.

Its like Pazzo levers... they're almost the defacto norm now, but they're complete and total CRG ripoffs. CRG has been making levers for over a decade... Pazzo came on the market around '04-05 and sold the same damn lever for a little bit less money. The best part is that now they have to compete with cheap Chinese crap on ebay for half price. More rip-offs of CRG's original design.
 
OpenGambit said:
Without going into detail about IP law. It is very very difficult to patent functionality. For example, Lego lost against megablocks. (sp?)

We don't even know if there is a patent.

This is not a copyright/trademark issue - Copyright is for print, while trademarks are like branding.
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Sometimes it's not necessarily difficult, it's how the patents are actually written that matters. A sloppily written patent is easier to infringe upon or to challenge than a well constructed one. I know because I've been involved in writing patents and have a couple of use (method) ones and some formulation ones.
 
FriendlyFoe said:
One of these companies has clearly ripped off the other, people can decide on their own who they think that is. I'm not affiliated with heroic in any way other then the fact that i think they have great product and i will be buying gloves from them in the near future.
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Neither Heroic nor Velocity actually manufacture those gloves. My understanding is that both Heroic and Velocity are buying those gloves from the same third-party supplier, somewhere in Asia. There's no way to know from the outside looking in (and without relying on what parties with a vested interest are feeding us), who owns the intellectual property and whether they took any measures to protect that intellectual property, or whether it was even possible to register it as intellectual property. If the third-party supplier came up with the design then they're free to sell that design to whomever they please. If Heroic came up with the design and either (A) took no measures to protect it or (B) was not able to patent or trademark it due to "prior art" or whatever - AFAICT there is no single feature in those gloves that has never been seen before - I've had gloves in the past from other manufacturers that had most of the features of that glove, just not all of them in the same glove - then there's nothing stopping the third-party supplier from selling to others.

If you have something that you would consider to be valuable intellectual property, it's pretty high on the "ya don't" list that "ya don't get it manufactured under subcontract in Asia" because certain countries and companies in Asia are well known for paying zero attention to intellectual property rights. But of course, getting it manufactured in a country that DOES respect intellectual property, would cost more. Even then, it won't stop the copiers in Asia from copying ... but at least then there might be some recourse, and it's pretty likely that in the course of copying, it would be cheapened in some way so as not to be identical to the original. If a third party in Asia is doing the manufacturing, it's almost guaranteed that they'll sell the exact thing - not a copy, the EXACT same thing - to whomever will buy it.

AFAICT Heroic is a US-based company and Velocity is Canadian, so one would think they could each sell in their own markets without stepping on each other. I would never have heard of Heroic aside from this fuss over those gloves ...

Disclaimer, I have a set of the Velocity gloves and I have another set on order. Really like them, regardless of fuss over who owns the design.
 
one simple solution for me - HELD phantom gloves. and the visor wiper really works! :)

I tried on the velocity ones, unfortunately I didn't like the feel and the velcro parts around the wrists didn't quite close the gauntlet to my comfort. The price point for the group buy was attractive though.
 
Brian P said:
Neither Heroic nor Velocity actually manufacture those gloves. My understanding is that both Heroic and Velocity are buying those gloves from the same third-party supplier, somewhere in Asia.
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+1 My understanding is they are both buying a branded product from the same manufacturer. Are they similar - yes. Are they the same - no. I do know that the Velocity gloves have been changed from the first release as I own the first issue and have looked at the changes. I do know that the changes made have been based on customer feedback to Velocity.

I don't think this is anything more than asking a manufacturer what patterns / products they have in a certain line and asking for changes.
 
^ Unless there's protected intellectual property rights that are being enforced - there's nothing stopping that third-party manufacturer from taking the changes that customer A requested, and selling those exact same changes to customer B, either!
 
They prob just roll out of the same factory and get shipped to different retailers with different logos printed on them.
Tones of companies making leather race suits do the exact same thing. Big deal.

I install flooring every day.
I see tons of products that are virtually identical, from competeing companies all the time.
Adura and Dura-Ceramic off the top of my head, to name just one of the hundreds.
 
jc100 said:
Sometimes it's not necessarily difficult, it's how the patents are actually written that matters. A sloppily written patent is easier to infringe upon or to challenge than a well constructed one. I know because I've been involved in writing patents and have a couple of use (method) ones and some formulation ones.
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I meant to say trademark functionality. oops.
 
omnivore said:
They prob just roll out of the same factory and get shipped to different retailers with different logos printed on them.
Tones of companies making leather race suits do the exact same thing. Big deal.

I install flooring every day.
I see tons of products that are virtually identical, from competeing companies all the time.
Adura and Dura-Ceramic off the top of my head, to name just one of the hundreds.
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Same thing in the auto industry. Die-hard Honda fanbois would be shocked to know how many parts for those cars come from the same suppliers in the same factories that are supplying parts for GM, Ford, Chrysler, and everyone else. Die-hard Chevy Bowtie fans would be equally shocked to know how many parts coming from overseas go into that so-called 'murrican car. If you've got a GM front-drive with a 6 speed automatic transmission, it's the same tranny that's in a Ford Taurus or Fusion. If you think a company that builds door latches doesn't recycle the engineering from a Toyota door latch when they design a new latch for a Hyundai, you've got something coming. Chrysler's much ballyhooed 8 speed automatic transmission is built under license from ZF who also supply BMW with that transmission ... and not so many years ago, if you bought certain BMW models with an automatic transmission, you got a GM transmission.

Fiat bought Chrysler out of bankruptcy and to share their technology with Chrysler. But ... Fiat used to be allied with GM, and some of their European vehicle platforms are based on previous GM platforms (Epsilon, etc), and the Fiat Multijet 1.3 litre diesel engine was co-developed with GM ... and it's used in European-market small Fiats such as the 500 and Panda. Wrinkle: The Fiat 500/Panda shares its platform with the Ford Ka small car. So ... (in Europe) you can buy a Ford with a diesel engine that is really a Fiat engine but which was developed by GM, in a car which shares its platform with a Fiat that owns Chrysler!
 
Brian P said:
Same thing in the auto industry. Die-hard Honda fanbois would be shocked to know how many parts for those cars come from the same suppliers in the same factories that are supplying parts for GM, Ford, Chrysler, and everyone else. Die-hard Chevy Bowtie fans would be equally shocked to know how many parts coming from overseas go into that so-called 'murrican car. If you've got a GM front-drive with a 6 speed automatic transmission, it's the same tranny that's in a Ford Taurus or Fusion. If you think a company that builds door latches doesn't recycle the engineering from a Toyota door latch when they design a new latch for a Hyundai, you've got something coming. Chrysler's much ballyhooed 8 speed automatic transmission is built under license from ZF who also supply BMW with that transmission ... and not so many years ago, if you bought certain BMW models with an automatic transmission, you got a GM transmission.

Fiat bought Chrysler out of bankruptcy and to share their technology with Chrysler. But ... Fiat used to be allied with GM, and some of their European vehicle platforms are based on previous GM platforms (Epsilon, etc), and the Fiat Multijet 1.3 litre diesel engine was co-developed with GM ... and it's used in European-market small Fiats such as the 500 and Panda. Wrinkle: The Fiat 500/Panda shares its platform with the Ford Ka small car. So ... (in Europe) you can buy a Ford with a diesel engine that is really a Fiat engine but which was developed by GM, in a car which shares its platform with a Fiat that owns Chrysler!
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That read like an Alabama family tree.
 
ZX600 said:
Who ****ing cares, did you sell me a pair for 120 bucks? Have you made an effort on helping out anyone in this forum? If the answer is no, then **** off
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Who cares? I care because ..........

I learned a story when i was a kid in church. It was a story where a woman who laid on her baby rolled over and smothered her child so she stole her friends newborn. The real mother was furious and the 2nd non chalant. Took the case to Solomon and he decided he'd cut the baby in half. The real mother when crazy. The 2nd thought it was the best decision. Solomon gave the child to the woman who actually cared.

What does this mean... I'm ******, because this is the 5th generation of my SP-R line that I have put much into. The 2nd to the table is whoring out a product for cost because he has nothing invested but money. He also built his business on my customer achievements, my pro marketing and my time and investment.

Sad thing to me that really bugs me is that I made a phone call to Jimmy and he said you know, I had the factory make your product without having a conversation with you and your right; I will quit selling these. I have only bought a few samples. He said I will stop doing this. Month later... Here we are.
 
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HEROICRacing said:
I learned a story when i was a kid in church. It was a story where a woman who laid on her baby rolled over and smothered her child so she stole her friends newborn. The real mother was furious and the 2nd non chalant. Took the case to Solomon and he decided he'd cut the baby in half. The real mother when crazy. The 2nd thought it was the best decision. Solomon gave the child to the woman who actually cared.

What does this mean... I'm ******, because this is the 5th generation of my SP-R line that I have put much into. The 2nd to the table is whoring out a product for cost because he has nothing invested but money. He also built his business on my customer achievements, my pro marketing and my time andinvestment.

I worked at Louis Vuitton for years and my Dept was right next to counterfeiting. After all the history and development that has gone into the originater, counterfeit
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Can you get me a discount on Louis items? Also I want a deep discount Heroic items; in turn I will change my signature to"Heroic rocks, Velocity blows".
This offer is also extended to Velocity in the vice versa form of names. You can also have my full endorsement and put on your website that Redballs from Toronto wears your gloves.
 
REDBALLS said:
Can you get me a discount on Louis items? Also I want a deep discount Heroic items; in turn I will change my signature to"Heroic rocks, Velocity blows".
This offer is also extended to Velocity in the vice versa form of names. You can also have my full endorsement and put on your website that Redballs from Toronto wears your gloves.
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LOL.. What do you need from LV?
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