Video of 403 crash removed? | Page 2 | GTAMotorcycle.com

Video of 403 crash removed?

sburns said:
I don't believe this is harsh at all. If anything totally reasonable. I can't believe we do not have laws in place to hold people to a higher level of accountability when they are involved in an accident where they kill or severely injury someone. Especially in a case such as this. I only saw a frame grab of the position of the bike and the SUV. To me it was quite obvious the driver of the SUV was at fault.
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The biker appeared to be also breaking a law (riding in the HOV lane with a single rider) but that has no bearing on the crash. She could have been two-up and the SUV still would have crossed the solid line because they didn't feel like waiting. I would hope that courts and insurance would consider her 0% at fault (unless she was also speeding in which case she may be a small part at fault), but who knows how it would play out. Do H-D have crash loggers in them?

I'm also all for Brian P's solution. I think it is a very reasoned response to people that obviously don't know or don't care about how they drive.
 
Didn't want to mention that she was in the HOV as a single person, but as stated, it has no bearing on the fact that the SUV crossed a double solid white line INTO the path of another vehicle causing death. What little the rider did should have NO bearing on the SUV driver's negligence. Unfortunately it may get pleaded down to unsafe lane change or something ridiculous compared to the result of their negligence.


I have had an almost similar incident. Driving northbound Don Mills in the HOV lane that bikes are allowed in. Going the speed limit, but the other lanes with cars are stop and go. Approached intersection and a southbound car makes a left that the cars are letting in. Car didn't even look past the cars letting them in, not at the HOV lane that traffic is moving at speed. Fortunately where there is a space, I'm watching. Braked hard enough to slow enough so that the car passed and I just miss them.
 
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I found the video on another site and watched it. Terrible to see. Clearly the SUV is 100% at fault for this accident. That the bike is in an HOV lane with a single rider is not an issue as the SUV driver clearly did not see the MC at all and whether the bike had one or two riders on it is irrelevant.

Over the next 6 - 15 months we'll hear how the issue is dealt with in the courts and what penalty the SUV ultimately is charged with and is found guilty of. I'm very confident you'll be dissatisfied with the outcome.
 
I just looked this up on reddit to see the video, but paused it just before full impact since I'm not good at watching that sort of thing.

It's super sad to see. What struck me the most was that the rider appeared to freeze from panic as their was next to no reaction to avoid like hard braking or veering hard to the left... she just plowed right into the back as if it wasn't even there. Such an absolute shame. RIP rider, my heart is with the family. Despite how horrible what the SUV driver did, assuming they are not a sociopath (which is highly unlikely), they will have to live the rest of their life knowing that they killed someone because they tried to save a bit of time. Absolutely tragic on all fronts.
 
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sburns said:
I don't believe this is harsh at all. If anything totally reasonable. I can't believe we do not have laws in place to hold people to a higher level of accountability when they are involved in an accident where they kill or severely injury someone. Especially in a case such as this. I only saw a frame grab of the position of the bike and the SUV. To me it was quite obvious the driver of the SUV was at fault.
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I think we do. For example, criminal negligence causing death or bodily harm.

The criminal code defines criminal negligence as anyone who "shows wanton or reckless disregard for the lives or safety of other persons." (§219).

§221: "Every one who by criminal negligence causes bodily harm to another person is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding ten years"

§220 reads "Every person who by criminal negligence causes death to another person is guilty of an indictable offence and liable ... in any other case, to imprisonment for life"

I'm surprised seemingly no prosecutor has ever argued that careless, inattentive, negligent operation of a motor vehicle on a busy public highway by definition satisfies §219 and that people injured or killed by such action are the victims of criminal negligence causing bodily harm or death respectively.
 
Is it considered bad form to point out some things the rider could have done to avoid the accident?

RIP rider...but as someone who drives for a living and has spent pretty much my entire adult life on the road for my job..when I watched that video right from the first few frames (long before the collision, the version I saw had about 30 seconds of footage before the actual wreck) I immediately knew what was going to happen, and I also immediately saw how (from the perspective as a rider as well) it could have been avoided.

I don't want to take away from the tragedy...but if learning from it saves the life of another rider some day, is it worthy of discussion...regardless of the tragedy?
 
The SUV tilted left before darting into the hov lane which makes the side mirror almost useless. I was also wondering why no brakes was applied or any reaction from rider because I counted 3 seconds before impact. I think in the video it shows she may have time to react but what you see in the video may not be the same timing and spacing of the vehicles in real life because of the lens on the car cam. I remember a car cutting me off very close and when I went home to replay it, it did not show he was close at all.
 
PrivatePilot said:
Is it considered bad form to point out some things the rider could have done to avoid the accident?

I don't want to take away from the tragedy...but if learning from it saves the life of another rider some day, is it worthy of discussion...regardless of the tragedy?
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It's not bad form if done with respect - poor riding techniques are hopefully replaced with better ones.
I seldom follow the fallen riders forum or even read the news about the various crashes that happen, however my brother emailed me the video asking if I thought it was preventable. I wrote back to him:

Yes that was easily preventable by all sides.

The SUV Driver was 100% at fault by crossing over a double solid white line - it's there on a bend for a reason.
The motorcycle rider was also 100% at fault for riding in the HOV lane while only having one person on the bike - it's for 2 or more person per vehicle or electric cars or taxi vehicles only.

To make this preventable (if the rider also had a passenger which would have allowed them to ride in that lane in the first place), he/she should have not been going so fast around that corner. You just can't see far enough around that bend if you are travelling at 100km/hr while the cars are at a full stop on the right. Recognize the hazards.

I take that corner every day I'm in the electric car and impatient drivers cross that double white line all the time, because they are too impatient to wait 200 metres up the road where the road straightens out, where it's allowed and safe to make the lane change on a dotted white line. If cars to my right are at a full stop on that bend, then I have to take that corner slowly, because I just can't see around that corner well enough to manage an emergency stop. If I'm on the bike as a solo rider, I just don't go in that lane - it's not worth the few minutes I save.
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(and I've timed the savings at 7 minutes - consistently at 4pm, Monday to Friday)
 
Well...my thoughts on how it could have been avoided are mainly two fold.

When riding/driving in a lane with adjacent same-directly traffic moving at a vastly difference pace one needs to recognize that it's extremely high risk. Car drivers ARE stupid and WILL do these sorts of things. I've had it happen to me in my truck and have nearly creamed people (3000# car vs 140,000# semi, guess who's going to win) on more than a few occasions. People just don't look or are too impatient to not think that others won't just avoid their stupid maneuvers. Many will, these sorts of situations happen all the time but are not always avoidable by the innocent party.

On my motorcycle when left with no other option except to ride in this scenario I am HYPER aware of the possibility someone is going to intrude on my lane - I virtually expect it. The SUV itself was already over the double solid moments before it pulled over it completely (and the accident occurred) so there were warning signs.

Still, again, if you're in that situation with no other choice...place yourself in the safest possible situation and expect someones going to cut into your lane. Had the MC been in the left tire track vs the right the option to swerve onto the shoulder (or just a controlled lane change onto it to go around the offender) would have been there.

I know it's easy to criticize after the fact and I do so only with the utmost respect in hoping that someone learns from it so it never happens to anyone else.
 
@PrivatePilot wouldn't being in the left tire track
a) be almost inviting them to share a lane with you?
b) severely limit being seen? ie: most people (I have found) place their mirrors at too much of angle inward, possibly because that is what they were taught) so they see right along their vehicle's side, and also, most do not shoulder check.

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Joe Bass said:
@PrivatePilot wouldn't being in the left tire track
a) be almost inviting them to share a lane with you?
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Fair enough, but in the case of someone who is barely looking to begin with before swerving into the other lane there's a strong argument that doing things slightly incorrectly to make a situation survivable/avoidable for ones self is preferential to doing things correctly only to end up dying for the sake of following the rules.

The cardinal number one rule professional drivers are taught is to "always leave yourself an out", IE have a plan in your mind on where you're going to point your vehicle if and when things go to hell in a handbasket in front of you. This was drilled into my head when I got my AZ licence decades ago since the reality is that unlike a car you can't simply slam on the brakes and stop in 50-100 feet like a car can, it's just impossible.

On a motorcycle, if you need to bend or massage the rules a little in order to accomplish ensuring a dangerous situation remains surviveable if things do go wrong in front of you, then so be it. It beats being involved in wreck (or worse) just because you were taught to always ride in a certain blocking position (for example) and felt the need to always follow the rules.

Sometimes when driving on a regular 2 lane road for example I'll choose the right hand tire track for a short period of time if I see something on the shoulder in the opposite direction ahead (sometimes a kilometer or more) that I feel may cause cars to swerve into opposing traffic..and MY tire track. Yes, it invites traffic behind me to potentially try to share my lane and pass me, but one can watch for and plan accordingly for that as well. It beats following all the rules only to have a car swerve into your tire track and possibly have a head on collision, right?

This is the other thing professional drivers are always taught - ALWAYS be looking ahead. As far ahead as you can see. Observe what's going on. Anticipate what other cars are going to do. Plan and operate your vehicle accordingly. And bend the rules if it's the difference between a wreck, or not.
 
The cardinal number one rule professional drivers are taught is to "always leave yourself an out"
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Always have an escape route!
I was taught that way back when I first started riding. I agree with PP, in the same situation I don't choose the blocking position, I choose the position that gives me the greatest lead time for an escape. Come to think of it...when going down the DVP during the games and the other lanes were essentially stopped, I did run the left track to avoid anyone poking out from the line.
 
PrivatePilot said:
Fair enough, but in the case of someone who is barely looking to begin with before swerving into the other lane there's a strong argument that doing things slightly incorrectly to make a situation survivable/avoidable for ones self is preferential to doing things correctly only to end up dying for the sake of following the rules.

The cardinal number one rule professional drivers are taught is to "always leave yourself an out", IE have a plan in your mind on where you're going to point your vehicle if and when things go to hell in a handbasket in front of you. This was drilled into my head when I got my AZ licence decades ago since the reality is that unlike a car you can't simply slam on the brakes and stop in 50-100 feet like a car can, it's just impossible.

On a motorcycle, if you need to bend or massage the rules a little in order to accomplish ensuring a dangerous situation remains surviveable if things do go wrong in front of you, then so be it. It beats being involved in wreck (or worse) just because you were taught to always ride in a certain blocking position (for example) and felt the need to always follow the rules.

Sometimes when driving on a regular 2 lane road for example I'll choose the right hand tire track for a short period of time if I see something on the shoulder in the opposite direction ahead (sometimes a kilometer or more) that I feel may cause cars to swerve into opposing traffic..and MY tire track. Yes, it invites traffic behind me to potentially try to share my lane and pass me, but one can watch for and plan accordingly for that as well. It beats following all the rules only to have a car swerve into your tire track and possibly have a head on collision, right?

This is the other thing professional drivers are always taught - ALWAYS be looking ahead. As far ahead as you can see. Observe what's going on. Anticipate what other cars are going to do. Plan and operate your vehicle accordingly. And bend the rules if it's the difference between a wreck, or not.
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I concur. If you're in any lane, on any highway, at any time where the traffic is stopped in one lane but moving well in another, expect some imbecile to pull in front of you without warning. Accordingly, choose a position in your lane that will afford you the best possible out for accident avoidance. What did this woman do wrong? She should have expected her lane to be violated, travelled close to the emergency shoulder and used that space to maneuver once the SUV cut her off. It's called "getting the big picture". Also, she was travelling too fast for the congested conditions. I can't say enough that the SMITH system training given to AZ drivers comes in very handy for motorcyclists too:


  • --Aim High In Steering. Look at least 15 seconds into your future, not just at the vehicle in front of you.
  • --Get the Big Picture. Look for hazards. ...
  • --Keep Your Eyes Moving. Don't stare. ...
  • --Leave Yourself an Out. Monitor the space cushion around you.
  • --Make Sure They See You. Use your signals.
 
All very good points in reference o my question.
Thank you

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It's hard to have these discussions after a major loss like this as some will consider it victim blaming (and ultimately, the SUV driver is still mostly at fault here), but as I said, if someone can learn from the tragedy and avoid becoming a statistic themselves because of it...it's for the better.
 
I am on high alert any time I am in a moving traffic lane next to a lane that is stopped.

I'm not sure I'd be in the left tire track (too much chance of a motorist not seeing you and then doing the move in question) but I would be:
- Looking for an excuse to slow down, and certainly not going past the posted speed limit. (Too slow invites someone from behind to overtake in the same lane)
- Actively scanning vehicles in the stopped lane for signs of them starting to move over.
- Covering the brake lever.
- Have muscles prepared for a handlebar-shove to initiate a left swerve. The left swerve would probably be prioritized over slamming on the brakes especially if there was another vehicle behind - probably depends on how far ahead I saw someone starting to move over.
 
I've watched the video over and over and count ~60-frames (2-seconds) from the time the SUV had its front wheels turned and had begun moving to the point of impact. While the rider (R.I.P.) is in view it does not appear that there is any reaction; no brake lights I can see, no skidding or skid marks, no leg motion indicating rear braking and it appears the front brake lever is not covered. Just unabated forward motion.

All of the points made above are great. As Brian P notes, "actively scanning vehicles in the stopped lane for signs of them starting to move over" is a huge one. Just as with left-turners, look to the front wheels. If they're turned in a direction that will take them into your path, extra caution is required.

My biggest take-away here is that it's critical to pay attention and not zone-out. We've always got to be vigilant and alert.
 
jeff96 said:
I think there may be people on the forum who knew this rider. I wouldn't want a video of my friend getting killed posted publicly.


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Oh great, so if your friend gets killed by a serial killer lets not give any info on him because it might hurt your feelings, then I will be walking outside at night unarmed and unaware. Life is life, we have a right to know what goes on around us.
 
Pegassus said:
Oh great, so if your friend gets killed by a serial killer lets not give any info on him because it might hurt your feelings, then I will be walking outside at night unarmed and unaware. Life is life, we have a right to know what goes on around us.
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Okay, here's your heads up. A vehicle may pull into your lane and kill you. Now you're aware.

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