Tue 12th Hwy 403 stunters - you're on CTV news
- Thread starter FLSTC
- Start date
Oh, ok. I find some of these long winded posts tedious, and read the first paragraph, then skim. Carry on then.
This is why we can't have nice things
Welcome back! 4 days without you; I was worried
[the high] Insurance rates have almost nothing to do with rider behavior in Ontario...if you are thinking this and feeling rage at your fellow riders...just stop now.
this griff2 guy reminds me of several people I've had occasion to meet and know over the years....
- likely can barely stay on the bike just riding from place to place (when he's actually on the thing and not posting on here).
- equates his inability to perform advanced manuevers in traffic to unwillingness and "restraint" on his part
- probably thinks it's ok to go 79km/h on Airport Rd on a sunny Sunday afternoon and not help people pass him and his equally milk-toast buddies.
Look dude, after coming here and reading about 4 of your posts I have two things to say to you:
- You are more likely to die due to low riding capability than the sport bike people you are so frequently making reference to
- The world isn't subject to your imagined ethical standards...nobody gives a **** that you're going the speed limit...it's dumb, that's why most people in Ontario don't obey it...forget bikes, look at cars at any given time.
People aren't complicated creatures - if you give them a rule that doesn't make any sense to them and don't strictly enforce it, they will all break it...cars drivers and motorcyclists are no exception to this.
this griff2 guy reminds me of several people I've had occasion to meet and know over the years....
- likely can barely stay on the bike just riding from place to place (when he's actually on the thing and not posting on here).
- equates his inability to perform advanced manuevers in traffic to unwillingness and "restraint" on his part
- probably thinks it's ok to go 79km/h on Airport Rd on a sunny Sunday afternoon and not help people pass him and his equally milk-toast buddies.
Look dude, after coming here and reading about 4 of your posts I have two things to say to you:
- You are more likely to die due to low riding capability than the sport bike people you are so frequently making reference to
- The world isn't subject to your imagined ethical standards...nobody gives a **** that you're going the speed limit...it's dumb, that's why most people in Ontario don't obey it...forget bikes, look at cars at any given time.
People aren't complicated creatures - if you give them a rule that doesn't make any sense to them and don't strictly enforce it, they will all break it...cars drivers and motorcyclists are no exception to this.
Inability to perform "advanced maneuvers in traffic"? Really? What's that? Stand-up wheelies?
I've been riding a long time. The number of my years of riding without crash probably exceeds the IQ demonstrated in the post above, but carry on. Say anything you want.
Thanks! Too pooched to post. My employer is making unreasonable demands on my time and energy.
Reading traffic, rapidly changing lanes to avoid hazards and dangerous situations, making your way quickly and efficiently through herds of cars to find the safe spaces inbetween large groups of them (on highways)...things that you don't learn while keeping busy scoffing at other riders.
Experience and skill aren't related - you can spend years white-knuckling it to Starbucks on Sundays and still be a ****** rider.
---
Hey, if you're a good rider, awesome - keep it safe out there, but your posts give the impression this is not the case...just some outsider perspective for you, you're welcome.
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Megamaniac
Well-known member
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#griffrippin
Well, technically, the car whomever recorded this was in was close enough for bad things to happen if one of these guys looped it.
Anyway, she seemed entertained from the background giggles; wonder if she actually sent it to the media/police, or if it was posted to social media where it was pick up on
-D-
Banned
I wonder how fast the car was traveling.
They should take this crap to the track...oh wait, hmmm
I doubt you will see the point, I am going to make here, because when it comes to anything I post you immediately seem to have some form of negative reaction to.
I agree, 100% with your point of view that the speed limits, (in MOST cases), are artificially too low in the province. Having said that they are set by engineers etc and then "approved" by the politicians we elect, not the police. The police merely enforce what is put into place by others. They set the limits based upon the "perceived" skill level of the "average" driver. I believe we all have seen drivers on the 401, who shouldn't be on ANY road with a limit of more than 40 km/h. There are also a select few who have the skill set to be able to drive at 200 km/h in safety, (although there are MANY who THINK they fit into this category). The problem is when those who think they are in the latter group meets up with someone in the first group.
I also agree, that these riders, could perform these "stunts" in total safety, IF they were being done in a facility designed for them or if there were NO other vehicles even remotely close, (which as you pointed out was not the case here).
The biggest issue with doing this type of stuff on a public roadway in plain view of other road users, (not to mention when it is done for a prolonged period of time, to permit it to be recorded), is not if it was safe or if the rider, (and NO ONE truly knows what their skill level is based solely upon the video), is the perception it leaves with those who view it.
My issue is not with if it as safe, or if it should be done, but rather with two other issues.
1. We ALL hate the rates we pay for bike insurance, more so, those who are young and ride sport bikes, (then as you like to refer to me, fat old guys falling off cruisers). Riding in the manner that these riders are on a public road, only reinforces the stereotypes, (in most cases wrongly applied). But it also damages ANY lobbying effort riders may try to mount about insurance rates being too high. Insurance executives see these type of videos and smile, because they know how the general public will vie ALL riders and ANY lobbying we as a group may try to bring forth will easily be dismissed. These riders may well have been in their 40's or 50's but the public won't know or see that they will simply see "some young punk" riding like an ******. This unfortunately doesn't just affect 20 something riders on sport bikes but is translated into higher premiums for ALL riders
2. Somewhat along the lines of my first point is the damage that this style of riding does to riders of all types of bikes. We have made some gains over the decades, think back to the 60's if the general public saw a group of 20 harley's with guys in leather jackets, they automatically, went to the idea of a biker gang. Today, you don't assume that to be the case, because riders of harley's and cruisers have made strides to change public perception. Back then we didn't have cell cameras and social media. Regardless, of how hard we as riders try to make the same strides to change public perception of guys on sport bikes, a single video like this gets splashed all over the internet and main stream media, and that negative perception is reinforced for the general public.
I spend a fair amount of my time advocating with the MTO, and municipalities on behalf of ATV riding in the province. This means I spend a lot of time talking to MTO, Police, and politicians. I can educate and begin to change perceptions then some yahoo goes out on Friday night jumps on his ATV while all liquored up, crashes and kills himself and all my efforts are shot. Now logic would tell them that just because one idiot did something stupid doesn't mean all ATV'ers are boozing rednecks, but that is exactly what they express when it happens. It would be nice if they were logical about it, but they respond as does the general public, with negative stereotypes.
There are as you rightfully pointed out no true places where a rider can go and stunt legally, (although I don't agree it is due to NIMBYism, but more to due with liability, and although the stunter may sign a waiver of liability that doesn't prevent their loved ones from filing lawsuits). But we as a general community of riders, rather than arguing if it was done safely, (there i a reason these guys were running without plates, Not because of current laws, but rather due to their mindset, that they are going to do what they want to do without regard for others). They would also be the first to initiate a high speed chase if the coppers had been around. But rather we should as a community recognize the damage that this does to our community as a whole.
I agree, 100% with your point of view that the speed limits, (in MOST cases), are artificially too low in the province. Having said that they are set by engineers etc and then "approved" by the politicians we elect, not the police. The police merely enforce what is put into place by others. They set the limits based upon the "perceived" skill level of the "average" driver. I believe we all have seen drivers on the 401, who shouldn't be on ANY road with a limit of more than 40 km/h. There are also a select few who have the skill set to be able to drive at 200 km/h in safety, (although there are MANY who THINK they fit into this category). The problem is when those who think they are in the latter group meets up with someone in the first group.
I also agree, that these riders, could perform these "stunts" in total safety, IF they were being done in a facility designed for them or if there were NO other vehicles even remotely close, (which as you pointed out was not the case here).
The biggest issue with doing this type of stuff on a public roadway in plain view of other road users, (not to mention when it is done for a prolonged period of time, to permit it to be recorded), is not if it was safe or if the rider, (and NO ONE truly knows what their skill level is based solely upon the video), is the perception it leaves with those who view it.
My issue is not with if it as safe, or if it should be done, but rather with two other issues.
1. We ALL hate the rates we pay for bike insurance, more so, those who are young and ride sport bikes, (then as you like to refer to me, fat old guys falling off cruisers). Riding in the manner that these riders are on a public road, only reinforces the stereotypes, (in most cases wrongly applied). But it also damages ANY lobbying effort riders may try to mount about insurance rates being too high. Insurance executives see these type of videos and smile, because they know how the general public will vie ALL riders and ANY lobbying we as a group may try to bring forth will easily be dismissed. These riders may well have been in their 40's or 50's but the public won't know or see that they will simply see "some young punk" riding like an ******. This unfortunately doesn't just affect 20 something riders on sport bikes but is translated into higher premiums for ALL riders
2. Somewhat along the lines of my first point is the damage that this style of riding does to riders of all types of bikes. We have made some gains over the decades, think back to the 60's if the general public saw a group of 20 harley's with guys in leather jackets, they automatically, went to the idea of a biker gang. Today, you don't assume that to be the case, because riders of harley's and cruisers have made strides to change public perception. Back then we didn't have cell cameras and social media. Regardless, of how hard we as riders try to make the same strides to change public perception of guys on sport bikes, a single video like this gets splashed all over the internet and main stream media, and that negative perception is reinforced for the general public.
I spend a fair amount of my time advocating with the MTO, and municipalities on behalf of ATV riding in the province. This means I spend a lot of time talking to MTO, Police, and politicians. I can educate and begin to change perceptions then some yahoo goes out on Friday night jumps on his ATV while all liquored up, crashes and kills himself and all my efforts are shot. Now logic would tell them that just because one idiot did something stupid doesn't mean all ATV'ers are boozing rednecks, but that is exactly what they express when it happens. It would be nice if they were logical about it, but they respond as does the general public, with negative stereotypes.
There are as you rightfully pointed out no true places where a rider can go and stunt legally, (although I don't agree it is due to NIMBYism, but more to due with liability, and although the stunter may sign a waiver of liability that doesn't prevent their loved ones from filing lawsuits). But we as a general community of riders, rather than arguing if it was done safely, (there i a reason these guys were running without plates, Not because of current laws, but rather due to their mindset, that they are going to do what they want to do without regard for others). They would also be the first to initiate a high speed chase if the coppers had been around. But rather we should as a community recognize the damage that this does to our community as a whole.
My reactions are always based on the content of the post, or sometimes, as in a case like this, the content which is missing. See you blame the politicians while absolving the police competely; but the reality is, these types of policy are based around information supplied by the loudest groups. Front of that line; the police.
Are you honestly going to sit back and tell us all that Police services don't lobby the government on behalf of their own best interest. Wait.. you just did.
This doesn't mean all cops share the same interest, but it's pretty blatant misinformation on your part; again.
hedo2002 said:
I guess you missed the part where I called these guys tools... I'm not a wheelie for the kids kinda guy; particularly in a group around other cars. As I said, the camera car was close; close enough that I wouldn't even think of lifting the front. But I'm glad you got that out.
ps. I never called you fat
hedo2002 said:
Those are obviously contributing factors as well. But IMO a huge reason we don't have many options is noise. When they built the road course at TMP, it almost didn't survive the first year because of noise complaints. This despite the fact the drag strip had been in the area for ages.. Everyone wants you to go to the track, but don't build it near them...
I merely stated that the police enforce what is put into place by others. I have attended meetings, (not as an officer), with MTO, in which new legislation is being considered. I can assure you the police do not "lobby" the MTO, the police, (who may or may not even attend the meeting, are asked to prepare a report, (If they are unable to attend), or speak if they are in attendance. It is almost always a commander of the unit which will be tasked with the enforcement of the proposed legislation, (IE Highway safety division for HTA legislation, S.A.V.E team for atv, sled or boating related legislation). They provide stats on how many incidents have occurred related to the proposed legislation, over periods, (normally last 12 months, 5 years and 10 years). They speak to how enforcement would be conducted, any potential issues they may see with the legislation and enforcement etc. Normally also in attendance, are reps from MTO engineering, any consultants, (engineering firms, safety consultants, etc), OMA, (Ontario Medical Association), Coroners Office, EMS, Fire reps. There may also be other meetings which will include, "stakeholders" mothers of dead victims, lobbyists, Vehicle manufacturers, etc. Then the proposed legislation is drafted by MTO staff, it is then sent to the Ministers office for any input, (including spin doctors, as to how it will be "played" to the public). Then it goes to the politicians who pass it. So the police have VERY little input, certainly no more than do several other entities. This info is provided for the benefit of all members not directed solely at yourself.
Two easy examples are the zero alcohol until after age 21 that law was NOT as a result of police lobbying, but rather, a very influential parent whose kid died after drinking at a Muskoka, and crashing into a lake.
the stunt driving law again was not police lobbying but rather public outcry after a couple, (the husband's BAC was over the legal limit at the time of the crash), who were killed, when they were hit by one of two stunt racers.
IMHO both are BAD laws, and resulted not from police lobbying, but as knee jerk reactions from politicians who knew they played well to the public, and made great sound bites on the 6 pm news, despite the obvious flaws, (both victims had been drinking and were over the legal limit).
I believe I acknowledged your point that these riders were not playing safe, something we both agree upon.
As for the reasons tracks or stunting facilities aren't being built, we have both pointed out but a few, (I am sure there are many), but who in there right mind would want to pour millions into a facility, to discover they have to deal with complaints, as well as potentially putting everything they own at risk from lawsuits that would take years if not decades to resolve. Serious stunters "might" be willing to pony up cash to cover the costs to use the facilities, but many who ride without plates nor insurance are unlikely to have the expendable cash, or wish to part with it for facility fees, as that wouldn't mesh well with their rebel and the law doesn't apply to me outlook.
But as I said we do agree on several points of this discussion.
I believe another poster pointed out, although not ideal there are MUCH more suitable back roads, to do this style of riding, than on any 400 series highways. But as others have also pointed out, these type of riders WANT the attention and they get it on a 400 seris highway not on a deserted back road.
Two easy examples are the zero alcohol until after age 21 that law was NOT as a result of police lobbying, but rather, a very influential parent whose kid died after drinking at a Muskoka, and crashing into a lake.
the stunt driving law again was not police lobbying but rather public outcry after a couple, (the husband's BAC was over the legal limit at the time of the crash), who were killed, when they were hit by one of two stunt racers.
IMHO both are BAD laws, and resulted not from police lobbying, but as knee jerk reactions from politicians who knew they played well to the public, and made great sound bites on the 6 pm news, despite the obvious flaws, (both victims had been drinking and were over the legal limit).
I believe I acknowledged your point that these riders were not playing safe, something we both agree upon.
As for the reasons tracks or stunting facilities aren't being built, we have both pointed out but a few, (I am sure there are many), but who in there right mind would want to pour millions into a facility, to discover they have to deal with complaints, as well as potentially putting everything they own at risk from lawsuits that would take years if not decades to resolve. Serious stunters "might" be willing to pony up cash to cover the costs to use the facilities, but many who ride without plates nor insurance are unlikely to have the expendable cash, or wish to part with it for facility fees, as that wouldn't mesh well with their rebel and the law doesn't apply to me outlook.
But as I said we do agree on several points of this discussion.
I believe another poster pointed out, although not ideal there are MUCH more suitable back roads, to do this style of riding, than on any 400 series highways. But as others have also pointed out, these type of riders WANT the attention and they get it on a 400 seris highway not on a deserted back road.
"Vehement police opposition. Those three words sum up the main obstacle to effective police oversight, not just in Ontario, but in most other provinces that have tried to create their own versions of the SIU.
This is not a criticism, but a fact of life: The police lobby is very powerful – in fact, I can’t think of another interest group in society that is more powerful. Police put their lives on the line to stop crime and protect our communities. They are heroes to many of us. And as I mentioned before, they have guns."
~André Marin, Ombudsman of Ontario
Though talking about the SIU, this statement from OUR Ombudsman sums it up nicely. The lobbying happens (carding most recently, and they're still fighting for it) and I frankly don't care if you chose to deny it; I'll take Mr. Marin's word over yours any day.
They are a legalized mafia - dislike them if you want but unless you're willing to go "all in" in any given situation we do need to "respect" them (respect meaning acknowledge that temporarily a group of people who aren't deserving or qualified to have power - do indeed have power - and act accordingly).
Tickets mean more money for police budgets which means more "speed traps" and more predatory practices and more money for police budgets and...you see where this is going.
We need to cut the BS at the source - no more municipal money from traffic tickets, no more ticket money being added to the budget of the people handing them out.
The OPP on patrol in most areas are essentially glorified meter maids that don't really even need service weapons - I'm willing to bet the guys doing the patrols aren't happy about it either; maybe we can get them on board and start a movement...but I doubt it, people are too busy lining up at Tim Hortons and The Beer Store to give a **** about what goes on around them (on average).
Tickets mean more money for police budgets which means more "speed traps" and more predatory practices and more money for police budgets and...you see where this is going.
We need to cut the BS at the source - no more municipal money from traffic tickets, no more ticket money being added to the budget of the people handing them out.
The OPP on patrol in most areas are essentially glorified meter maids that don't really even need service weapons - I'm willing to bet the guys doing the patrols aren't happy about it either; maybe we can get them on board and start a movement...but I doubt it, people are too busy lining up at Tim Hortons and The Beer Store to give a **** about what goes on around them (on average).
Why people keep posting this **** in this forum and Stunt sub forum is beyond me.
Is this what the "everyone gets a medal even when they lose" culture is converting people into?
I guess every time I see a ****** bag soccer mom trying to kill me with her minivan I have to go to a baby forum and yell at the moms there?
Idiots.
Is this what the "everyone gets a medal even when they lose" culture is converting people into?
I guess every time I see a ****** bag soccer mom trying to kill me with her minivan I have to go to a baby forum and yell at the moms there?
Idiots.
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