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Tire pressure, and suspension setup
- Thread starter 油井緋色
- Start date
I rode my girlfriend's gixxer 750 at Calabogie last year in red group on Q3's, on a 32 degree day. They were great.
Obviously I wasn't pushing like I would on my bike on race tires, but still a safe pace in red. I would also add that in many cases, by the time a rider got fast enough to overheat a street tire they hopefully have gained enough skill to feel what's going on. In all likelihood they would decide to try race tires before it came to that.
N3WMAN
Well-known member
I ran street tires until I started racing. I would say most high performance street tires are fine up to a fast yellow/slow red pace. Once you start pushing them they tend to overheat and get unpredictable. Once you get used to warmers you'll never go back though. Being able to go as hard as you can right out of the gate is pretty much the best thing ever.
BigEvilDoer
Well-known member
Agreed, Newman... I had the same experience - street tires (in my case Bridgestone S20's) were more than enough up until I was at the upper end of the yellow group. Once they were over heating and getting greasy (lots of feedback, and it was obvious when something "wasn't right") I moved to GPA's and R10's (I prefer the way they feel over the GPA's actually). There's no way I (with my limited skill set) could have increased the pace without moving to proper track orientated tires (race scrubs).
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I am still pretty new to track day, this year being my first full year with my own track bikes. I am going to run warmers next year, here is my rationale. I dropped my bikes twice this year both times first lap out on cold tires. This makes you very gun shy till you get some heat in the tires. (I have DOT tires on my bikes) On a track day you only get x number of laps out, do you want to spend the first 2-3 warming tires? It really sucks to tip toe around the first couple laps getting passed by everyone and their brother. I think for the price you pay per lap on a track day it won't take long to pay for warmers. I also ride relatively light low HP bikes so maybe getting initial heat into a cold DOT tire is even harder.
Here we go,, YOU can NOT heat up a tire in 2 laps with out warmers. It is impossible! Nobody can do it. Not even Jodi Christie! It takes 40 minutes on "Average" with any decent warmer to heat soak a tire and rim. So tell me how this myth about taking two laps to heat your tires up is possible? PLUS,, ALL race tires, All makes with the right pressure need heat to allow you to keep them hot. So if you go slow for two laps you are in fact, cooling the tire. Two slow laps will heat the surface rubber,, BUT I guarantee you will not heat the carcass. So that soft surface rubber rips off as the inside carcass is hard. So here's the bonus,, with out warmers you may use $10 worth of rubber that session. With warmers you use $5. So you save money and have more fun and are safer! Why is this such a challenge to get the point across? 'Toast" is correct,, the fun factor alone will go up. Yes it costs more money, but the long term picture is more fun and a safer, cheaper lap time.
Also, If the temp is 15 C and you are at Shannonville or Cayuga,,, YOU WILL NOT BUILD HEAT. Bogie is about 10 C and you can maintain heat. So please stop kidding yourself people. 2 laps with out warmers is not a safe approach. And please,, if you do not use warmers stop bugging the tire guys. They all work in hot tire pressures. Cold is old school, it may work for you and your buddy,,,for now. But the fact remains you can not get optimum tire life or grip unless you work in hot numbers.
Here's the best,, you guys and girls that say " Oh I'm just in the Green group,, so I don't need warmers yet" How do you exit a corner compared to a red group rider? You hammer it! A red group rider exits with speed and the throttle hit is less aggressive. A green group rider exits slow and then hammers the throttle. The green group rider in fact can stress traction vs Horsepower way more then a red group rider. Red rider needs tire heat at the apex,, green rider needs it at the exit.
Also, If the temp is 15 C and you are at Shannonville or Cayuga,,, YOU WILL NOT BUILD HEAT. Bogie is about 10 C and you can maintain heat. So please stop kidding yourself people. 2 laps with out warmers is not a safe approach. And please,, if you do not use warmers stop bugging the tire guys. They all work in hot tire pressures. Cold is old school, it may work for you and your buddy,,,for now. But the fact remains you can not get optimum tire life or grip unless you work in hot numbers.
Here's the best,, you guys and girls that say " Oh I'm just in the Green group,, so I don't need warmers yet" How do you exit a corner compared to a red group rider? You hammer it! A red group rider exits with speed and the throttle hit is less aggressive. A green group rider exits slow and then hammers the throttle. The green group rider in fact can stress traction vs Horsepower way more then a red group rider. Red rider needs tire heat at the apex,, green rider needs it at the exit.
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Shaman
Well-known member
Cold pressures are just a place to start before you put the warmers on. Getting the tires heat-soaked to the right operating range and the right pressure is more important to riding at speed than anything else you can mention. In 2013 I crashed at 'bogie on a cold (2 degree) morning when I went around a couple of laps "easy" because of the temps and then decided that grip was good, so I upped my pace... the very next corner (5) I entered at speed, I crashed. It was like watching it in slow motion, It suddenly occurred to me that I had cooled off the tires right as I was entering the braking zone, opened the steering to take a wider line, grit my teeth and hoped for the best, then braced for the inevitable as I felt the tires roll over the edge of no return. The choice to ignore this advice has real consequences (see Toast's post).
Unless you're Trombino. Following him at 'bogie was a complete gong show but in a good way... lol
Unless you're Trombino. Following him at 'bogie was a complete gong show but in a good way... lol
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BigEvilDoer
Well-known member
Alright, we're talking Apples and Oranges, Mr. Bickle.
Most green and yellow group riders use street tires, which have compounds designed to heat up quicker - race tires don't, and therefore require the warmers etc.
No-one claimed you can heat soak a tire and rim in 2 laps in this thread, so I don't know where that's coming from. People simply said they go out for 2-3 laps at a slower pace to warm the tires and then go harder.
Would I recommend doing this with a DOT race tire? Absolutely not. Would I have a problem doing that on a Q3 or S20? Nope.
When you reach a certain pace, you will need to upgrade to proper race tires and warmers. Until you reach that pace, you will do nothing but lose heat in the race tires for as long as you are on track. Which is worse? Going out with hot tires and losing grip due to cooling tires as the session goes on, or going out a little slower and steadily increasing speed as your tires heat up whilst the session goes on? Your guess is as good as mine there.
I can understand your thoughts on corner exit of a green group rider stressing traction vs horsepower more than a red rider, but there's no way a green rider will put more stress on a tire than a red rider. Sure, the green is slower in the turns and hammers the gas, but red maintains a much higher G force in the turn than a green, and likely has the bike in the power band on corner exit. Due to this, I think your theory is flawed (green will be slower, less g's and probably not in optimal power band on corner exit) due to this. This isn't a personal attack - please don't think it is. Just comparing my logic to yours is all.
Most green and yellow group riders use street tires, which have compounds designed to heat up quicker - race tires don't, and therefore require the warmers etc.
No-one claimed you can heat soak a tire and rim in 2 laps in this thread, so I don't know where that's coming from. People simply said they go out for 2-3 laps at a slower pace to warm the tires and then go harder.
Would I recommend doing this with a DOT race tire? Absolutely not. Would I have a problem doing that on a Q3 or S20? Nope.
When you reach a certain pace, you will need to upgrade to proper race tires and warmers. Until you reach that pace, you will do nothing but lose heat in the race tires for as long as you are on track. Which is worse? Going out with hot tires and losing grip due to cooling tires as the session goes on, or going out a little slower and steadily increasing speed as your tires heat up whilst the session goes on? Your guess is as good as mine there.
I can understand your thoughts on corner exit of a green group rider stressing traction vs horsepower more than a red rider, but there's no way a green rider will put more stress on a tire than a red rider. Sure, the green is slower in the turns and hammers the gas, but red maintains a much higher G force in the turn than a green, and likely has the bike in the power band on corner exit. Due to this, I think your theory is flawed (green will be slower, less g's and probably not in optimal power band on corner exit) due to this. This isn't a personal attack - please don't think it is. Just comparing my logic to yours is all.
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Shaman
Well-known member
Somewhat true. But man, is it a crapshoot. I have seen a bike go out with 28# of pressure in the front and come back in with 35# - and there's probably worse. When you talk to these guys, they've usually got some story about how the bike is sliding or "chopping at the front" or something, which is limiting their pace and putting them on the brink of disaster. Granted it's not the "green" group that is in this category, they're usually still trying to figure out which corner does what and pace is not in question.
But without warmers, the tire is ripping itself up with cold tear. What you're saying has merit but also pitfalls.
You do make a good point, but I also must retort... the green group rider is at a lower speed in a lower gear when they "nail it" and that leads to high stress on the rear tire in particular. I hear a lot of low-paced guys talking about how they've put 3 rear tires on and their front still looks new...
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We should ban new tire threads on GTAM. They're all the same.
:cheers::cheers:
Okay,, we want to "what if" this to death.
So a DOT tire is rubber,,,as is a Dot race tire. DOT street tire has more grooves to help it heat up, and more silica to help with wet and colder conditions,and or dissipate water.
So my 20 years of making warmers[which we don't anymore] kind of plays into this.
ANY tire,, that is made of rubber ,,Michelin,Pirelli,Dunlop,Bridgestone,ChenShing,Meztler,Goodyear, What ever,, 300 feet of groves or none,, takes 40 minutes at an ambient air temp of 20 C with zero wind to heat soak the rim. Why do we heat soak the rim,, well for the first two laps the rim becomes the heat sink while the tire makes it's own heat. If you don't go hard and have the right pressure you loose heat all round.
So all I'm saying is this. You spend a lot of money to do a track day. You spend a lot of time working on your bike [or not ,,so this would not matter] Using warmers will help you excell and save money. You can argue this for ever. But I have spent well over 30 years watching people crash. I have spent 15 of those years teaching how not to crash with four schools. Since 1995 we have been fixing leathers for people that have crashed. So somewhere in there I have compiled the info to help save someone from hitting the deck.
Sure, I'll bet Dave,Wayne and Sandy can add value or argue some of my points. But the fact remains, agree or disagree,,and I have the years to argue this ,and I'm still learning a lot, warmers will make your tires of any kind last longer,they will give you a safer out lap, and allow you to progress faster as you have to adjust your suspension. Because,, A red group rider does not have to do as many huge suspension changes a green or yellow rider will. Simple fact. The biggest adjustment any green/yellow rider will make as he/she progress's to red is suspension. Or they won't progress. So why not make that program complete from the start?
So a DOT tire is rubber,,,as is a Dot race tire. DOT street tire has more grooves to help it heat up, and more silica to help with wet and colder conditions,and or dissipate water.
So my 20 years of making warmers[which we don't anymore] kind of plays into this.
ANY tire,, that is made of rubber ,,Michelin,Pirelli,Dunlop,Bridgestone,ChenShing,Meztler,Goodyear, What ever,, 300 feet of groves or none,, takes 40 minutes at an ambient air temp of 20 C with zero wind to heat soak the rim. Why do we heat soak the rim,, well for the first two laps the rim becomes the heat sink while the tire makes it's own heat. If you don't go hard and have the right pressure you loose heat all round.
So all I'm saying is this. You spend a lot of money to do a track day. You spend a lot of time working on your bike [or not ,,so this would not matter] Using warmers will help you excell and save money. You can argue this for ever. But I have spent well over 30 years watching people crash. I have spent 15 of those years teaching how not to crash with four schools. Since 1995 we have been fixing leathers for people that have crashed. So somewhere in there I have compiled the info to help save someone from hitting the deck.
Sure, I'll bet Dave,Wayne and Sandy can add value or argue some of my points. But the fact remains, agree or disagree,,and I have the years to argue this ,and I'm still learning a lot, warmers will make your tires of any kind last longer,they will give you a safer out lap, and allow you to progress faster as you have to adjust your suspension. Because,, A red group rider does not have to do as many huge suspension changes a green or yellow rider will. Simple fact. The biggest adjustment any green/yellow rider will make as he/she progress's to red is suspension. Or they won't progress. So why not make that program complete from the start?
Well my guess is the first. Go out hot and loose heat. Fact is if your warmers are 75-80 C when you go out on average you loose 25-30 C in a 10 lap session. So if you think you will go out cold and come in hotter it best be above 15 Celcius. Otherwise you will not build heat. And 50 C is better then ambient. Also going out hot gives you a much better chance to build and maintain heat. Which again, will help you improve,feel the bike better and offer feedback to the tire.suspension guru.
Sure you can do this with out warmers,, lots do. If you do XYZ lap time and NEVER go faster, then life is good. And I am fine with that. But should you wish to excel,, well then here is where we part ways. The second you take one quarter second off your lap times you changed everything. If you argue this well,,,best of luck!
Anybody, that is trying to improve and go faster! If all you wish to do is get off the street and have some fun,, you may be fine. But don't say that is all you wish to do and buy/use a lap timer.
If you are a true beginner a DOT tire only offers you the ability to go out in some wetter conditions. It's simple, this gets more complex as you go faster. So why not start with a good base program. No it's not cheap, but what really is?
Do it right ,learn right and the more you understand the more you enjoy this sport!
If you are a true beginner a DOT tire only offers you the ability to go out in some wetter conditions. It's simple, this gets more complex as you go faster. So why not start with a good base program. No it's not cheap, but what really is?
Do it right ,learn right and the more you understand the more you enjoy this sport!
Supernam
Well-known member
So if I am new and slow riding a Ninja 300, I don't need tire warmers right? If I plan on pushing it to it's limit racing then I should get slicks and tire warmers. I don't accelerate or brake nearly as much as the rest of the guys so will I lose too much heat anyways? Does all this mainly apply to 600's and 1000's? I'm going to leave my stock tires at 30psi front and back cold and see how it goes.
Shaman
Well-known member
A 300 will be a lot more forgiving than a supersport in some ways, to be sure, but once you get up to pace, it's a lowside from carrying too much corner speed (or a wrong line) that will usually get you, and that's where your pace will definitely come from with a 300. Instead of braking, you will be sailing into corners at similar or higher speeds compared to the 600s and possibly still on the throttle! Your tire budget will be quite cheap overall, so why skimp on buying tires that are not up to the job at hand? The good news is that your cornering skills learned on a 300 will carry over into all of your track time on any bike.
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