Tire pressure, and suspension setup

[油井緋色]

These questions are probably too broad but there's a wealth of conflicting, wrong, right, random information on Google as a bunch of the results come from forums...ironically.

Question 1

What is your personal preference and process for selecting a starting tire pressure on a track day (or race?) without tire warmers and adjusting it as the day goes on? I had a bit of an issue at DDT this year where I lost the rear slightly coming out of turn 4 (slowest left turn). When I asked some other guys there, they freaked out finding out my rear was at 42 psi (cold).

Question 2

Is it possible to have an "all-around" suspension setup that works for most Ontario tracks? How exactly do you go about setting this up? I know Fawaz has suspension support at his track days. After adjusting my tire pressure from the above point, my bike felt like it was understeering. At Shannonville, the bike gave me a few "horrey ****" moments when it hooked onto the surface cracks; can suspension combat this? The suspension was setup for street use.

If any of you understand this really well, please explain why for what you are doing.

Thanks!

 

[caboose56]

Answer 1.

Talk to your tire reps. I don't know what tires you're using but the reps will be able to give you the best advice on tire pressures. They may tell you to set them cold or hot.. it really depends on the tire. You'll get some varying answers here but the best place to get answers is directly from the reps.
Dunlop = Pro 6
Michelin = Kennedy Motorsports
Pirelli = Kennedy Motorsports
BStone = Ripp Racing

Answer 2

Yes. For fast trackday riders and even most novice or amateur racers having a suspension set up that is about 90% dialed in is perfectly adequate and will not really require any changes when going from one track to another. The best thing to do is to talk it over with someone who has some experience racing the same bike you have. Find out what the really fast guys are doing with your bike to help establish a decent geometry, make sure your spring rates are appropriate, get some help with a qualified tuner to get your damping somewhat dialed in. Do that and you'll have a set up that is decent (but not perfect) for just about any track.

 

[ZX600]

Edit: Never mind, Caboose already answered

These questions are probably too broad but there's a wealth of conflicting, wrong, right, random information on Google as a bunch of the results come from forums...ironically.

Question 1

What is your personal preference and process for selecting a starting tire pressure on a track day (or race?) without tire warmers and adjusting it as the day goes on? I had a bit of an issue at DDT this year where I lost the rear slightly coming out of turn 4 (slowest left turn). When I asked some other guys there, they freaked out finding out my rear was at 42 psi (cold).


Question 2

Is it possible to have an "all-around" suspension setup that works for most Ontario tracks? How exactly do you go about setting this up? I know Fawaz has suspension support at his track days. After adjusting my tire pressure from the above point, my bike felt like it was understeering. At Shannonville, the bike gave me a few "horrey ****" moments when it hooked onto the surface cracks; can suspension combat this? The suspension was setup for street use.

If any of you understand this really well, please explain why for what you are doing.

Thanks!

 

[油井緋色]

Thank you both. I was curious to see if anyone knew the science behind it.

I'll likely be running RS10s once my S20 Evos are worn out.

 

[Bickle Racing]

You can not even worry about suspension unless you have your tire pressures right. Basically the tires today use pressure to establish the rigidity in the side wall.
So if you are an aggressive rider you will need that pressure right so the tire grips properly. If you are not so aggressive you will still need the right pressure for you.
Regardless of you skill set,,pressures are probably the very first step to working on your suspension.
With out warmers you will not get your hot tire pressure in a ten lap session. So consider most trackday groups are 20 minute sessions,,, It takes 40 minutes at 20 C to heat soak a rim and tire. So you may never get that tire to work. You may never get any tire to work. Checking your hot tire pressure coming off the track is the next step. Also consider that most people today that know the track use hot tire pressures. So cold pressures are very old school and harder to set.
So to be fair to any tire,, set the proper pressure the Vendor suggests as Caboose suggested. And Friends should not tune friends bike's!

 

[BigEvilDoer]

I'll likely be running RS10s once my S20 Evos are worn out.

S20's are more than capable of a top end yellow track pace. I was running them at 31/29 psi cold. Only time they slipped was when I was ham fisted with the throttle on my old GSX-r750. They gave great feedback and were forgiving as well.

Have you ridden RS10's yet? They suggest warmers, but aren't necessary. I would suggest you use warmers - seen a few people without them ending up with massive cold tearing (could be combination of warm up times and improper suspension, I dunno).

 

[油井緋色]

S20's are more than capable of a top end yellow track pace. I was running them at 31/29 psi cold. Only time they slipped was when I was ham fisted with the throttle on my old GSX-r750. They gave great feedback and were forgiving as well.

Have you ridden RS10's yet? They suggest warmers, but aren't necessary. I would suggest you use warmers - seen a few people without them ending up with massive cold tearing (could be combination of warm up times and improper suspension, I dunno).

Nope, it was suggested by some friends with the reasoning "better to use good tires than crash". Don't know if that's good rationale as there might be info missing like what you just provided. I'll keep your PSI in mind.

 

[BigEvilDoer]

Nope, it was suggested by some friends with the reasoning "better to use good tires than crash". *snip* I'll keep your PSI in mind.

Why bother spending a ton of cash on tires if your pace will never get them to proper operating temperatures, or if you'll never push tires to anywhere near their limits?

Seriously - why would anyone bother buying race tires when they're just beginners?

No offence (seriously - not being flippant or GTAM @ssholish), but I've seen you ride the track, and you don't need high end tires as of yet - you'll just be throwing money out the window. Spending the extra cash on Stage 4 at Racer5 etc would be money better spent.

The PSI I gave you was suggested to my by a Bridgestone representative after I emailed Bridgestone USA directly. They suggested 31/32 Front and 29/30 Rear for track day usage. If the tires start to show blue tinting, they're overheating and will feel greasy.

 

[油井緋色]

Why bother spending a ton of cash on tires if your pace will never get them to proper operating temperatures, or if you'll never push tires to anywhere near their limits?

Seriously - why would anyone bother buying race tires when they're just beginners?

No offence (seriously - not being flippant or GTAM @ssholish), but I've seen you ride the track, and you don't need high end tires as of yet - you'll just be throwing money out the window. Spending the extra cash on Stage 4 at Racer5 etc would be money better spent.

The PSI I gave you was suggested to my by a Bridgestone representative after I emailed Bridgestone USA directly. They suggested 31/32 Front and 29/30 Rear for track day usage. If the tires start to show blue tinting, they're overheating and will feel greasy.

No offense taken and that was my opinion as well; your reasoning is solid anyway.

 

[Bickle Racing]

Cold Tearing is directly related to not having a tire warm enough. Tearing from suspension or pressure is not the same thing.
Cold tearing is the outside rubber getting warm and ripping off the cold rubber inside,,thus wasting money. Or wasting tires.
Tearing from suspension is more focused in areas of the tire.
Why is it people will avoid buying warmers but spend crazy money every where else? Warmers will reduce your tire bill,, or increase the life of tires. Not to mention Shannonville,Cayuga all have trouble building heat in any tire with any rider! Racers with warmers even come in cooler then they go out. So 15 C or less be very careful.

 

[BigEvilDoer]

Cold Tearing is directly related to not having a tire warm enough. Tearing from suspension or pressure is not the same thing.
Cold tearing is the outside rubber getting warm and ripping off the cold rubber inside,,thus wasting money. Or wasting tires.
Tearing from suspension is more focused in areas of the tire.
Why is it people will avoid buying warmers but spend crazy money every where else? Warmers will reduce your tire bill,, or increase the life of tires. Not to mention Shannonville,Cayuga all have trouble building heat in any tire with any rider! Racers with warmers even come in cooler then they go out. So 15 C or less be very careful.

That's sort of where I was going with my comments earlier - if your pace isn't enough to keep heat in tires (not racing - at a strictly track day, green or yellow groups), why bother buying tires that need warmers? Once you've reached a pace where you're over-riding hyper sport tires, absolutely - go with appropriate track orientated tires that need warmers.

My comments about the RS10's that I've seen were both from green or yellow riders. I believe their pace didn't warrant a tire of that calibre, and was directly related to the cold tearing problem they were having. Again, their suspension may have added to the problem, and likely a combination of low pace and improper suspension was the overall problem.

 

[Bickle Racing]

That's sort of where I was going with my comments earlier - if your pace isn't enough to keep heat in tires (not racing - at a strictly track day, green or yellow groups), why bother buying tires that need warmers? Once you've reached a pace where you're over-riding hyper sport tires, absolutely - go with appropriate track orientated tires that need warmers.

My comments about the RS10's that I've seen were both from green or yellow riders. I believe their pace didn't warrant a tire of that calibre, and was directly related to the cold tearing problem they were having. Again, their suspension may have added to the problem, and likely a combination of low pace and improper suspension was the overall problem.

Well, if I was riding green or a slower group I would use scrubs from a racer or a DOT tire that has more silica which is better in all weather conditions ,, At a slower pace. But reality is ,people will need to go to warmers if they progress as most do. So setting suspension and tire pressures with warmers, allows you to get better use of the track time and better value from your products. So your point has serious value.
Regardless,, all tires need attention and pressures that work for you,,may not for another rider. Two people can turn the same lap times and do it completely different.

 

[油井緋色]

Cold Tearing is directly related to not having a tire warm enough. Tearing from suspension or pressure is not the same thing.
Cold tearing is the outside rubber getting warm and ripping off the cold rubber inside,,thus wasting money. Or wasting tires.
Tearing from suspension is more focused in areas of the tire.
Why is it people will avoid buying warmers but spend crazy money every where else? Warmers will reduce your tire bill,, or increase the life of tires. Not to mention Shannonville,Cayuga all have trouble building heat in any tire with any rider! Racers with warmers even come in cooler then they go out. So 15 C or less be very careful.

Because this sport has many things you need and money doesn't grow on trees lol

I'll keep that in mind though, maybe something will be on sale during boxing day.

 

[ZX600]

I always used slicks with tire warmers from day one.

For those starting with Street Tires, at what point do you decide to move to slicks or DOT? After the first crash when the street tire over heated and got greasy? Once you lost confidence on the street tire? losing confidence means that you no longer feel you can take a corner at the speed you are capable etc, but would you know enough to know when that point is? a small slide out of an exit can represent a highside.

I am just saying (because I didn't experienced it) that the new rider might not know enough to know when to make the transition and a crash could be eminent, so is that worth the money saved for 1 or 2 years of running street tires?

A Generator can be had for let's say 800 (one time purchase)
Slicks will run you about $480 give and take. A front Dunlop at a beginner pace can last you over 200 laps, so unless you are planning to be a track rat, the front will last you for a long time. The rear depending the track could also last you a few track days if you use your warmers properly and rotate etc (unless you go to calabogy)

This is give and take as we are not talking about racing where you use 1 or 2 slicks during a weekend.

Maybe I am wrong but I see the benefits of a slick outweigh the savings. Who knows

 

[gsxr guy]

I always used slicks with tire warmers from day one.

For those starting with Street Tires, at what point do you decide to move to slicks or DOT? After the first crash when the street tire over heated and got greasy? Once you lost confidence on the street tire? losing confidence means that you no longer feel you can take a corner at the speed you are capable etc, but would you know enough to know when that point is? a small slide out of an exit can represent a highside.

I am just saying (because I didn't experienced it) that the new rider might not know enough to know when to make the transition and a crash could be eminent, so is that worth the money saved for 1 or 2 years of running street tires?

A Generator can be had for let's say 800 (one time purchase)
Slicks will run you about $480 give and take. A front Dunlop at a beginner pace can last you over 200 laps, so unless you are planning to be a track rat, the front will last you for a long time. The rear depending the track could also last you a few track days if you use your warmers properly and rotate etc (unless you go to calabogy)

This is give and take as we are not talking about racing where you use 1 or 2 slicks during a weekend.

Maybe I am wrong but I see the benefits of a slick outweigh the savings. Who knows

The only problem running race tires at newby level, is the tire(s) can cool so much during a session that they don't stick anymore.

 

[doozerdave]

The only problem running race tires at newby level, is the tire(s) can cool so much during a session that they don't stick anymore.

I had this happen on Pirelli slicks. I was leading some new riders around for a session, then at the checkered flag lap I wanted to put in one quicker lap. I couldn't. Slid the front tire through the first corner.

Street tires are perfectly fine for new riders, and even more experienced riders. I ran lots of different high performance street tires at the track. Ran all at 30/30 cold. I ran them up until I was one of the quicker red group riders. Then ran DOT race tires without warmers for a few seasons, then when I could afford it I bought warmers and a generator.

 

[ZX600]

I had this happen on Pirelli slicks. I was leading some new riders around for a session, then at the checkered flag lap I wanted to put in one quicker lap. I couldn't. Slid the front tire through the first corner.

Street tires are perfectly fine for new riders, and even more experienced riders. I ran lots of different high performance street tires at the track. Ran all at 30/30 cold. I ran them up until I was one of the quicker red group riders. Then ran DOT race tires without warmers for a few seasons, then when I could afford it I bought warmers and a generator.

So here is your answer OP, dave is a pretty quick guy so if he is ok with street tires I am sure most new riders would also.

 

[basmn]

I started on pilot power 2ct's on my r6 (bike came with them)... ran them for a season without any problems, 2nd season i installed pirelli SC and used warmers.... now i know the difference between street and track tires. The bike handled so much better, was more forgiving and feed back from the tires was terrific instilling more confidence. Dont get me wrong i'm no rossi but the difference was amazing.

 

[TwistedKestrel]

Slicks will run you about $480 give and take. A front Dunlop at a beginner pace can last you over 200 laps, so unless you are planning to be a track rat, the front will last you for a long time. The rear depending the track could also last you a few track days if you use your warmers properly and rotate etc (unless you go to calabogy)

What about heat cycling?

 

[Bickle Racing]

What about heat cycling?

Honestly? There is nobody I know at the track that really runs a tire long enough to even consider heat cycles.
Heat cycling came about way back and was and is actually more of a problem with out warmers. With out warmers the cycle is very great. Very hot to very cold.
With warmers you keep the cycle peaks and valleys much less.
I suppose you guys that run 200 laps on a front or more would technically see a tire degrade more from heat cycles but your speed is less so that should cancel out.
Moto GP tires are heated in the right conditions to 120 C at times. The carcass is so hard to handle the HP and corner "G"'s that they then have to heat the rubber to get it softer. So consider that this technology trickles down. If you go out slow and loose heat,, you can not go fast at the end of the session. FACT,, warmers hot, off, on the track at your lap time to maintain pressure and heat. Change any of that and you may be in trouble. Tires are tunable now. That fact alone should tell you what you need to do to maintain that at any level.