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Tankless hot water heater

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nobbie48

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I think a friend got conned into signing up for a gas tank-less HW heater a couple of months ago. The contract terms are going to skin him alive IMO. A search of the firms name comes up with the usual high pressure sales, long contract deals (15 years). Buy out is basically prepay the entire contract, five figures.

Now they have advised him there is no warranty unless he puts in a water softener. At a steep price, needless to say.

Does he need a water softener at likely 8-10 grand over the 15 years? My math says it would be cheaper to R&R the heater every four years.

A tank-less heater I gather is $1500-$2000 to install but what is free market replacement cost once the first one is in?

He's near Square One. Moderately hard water, 7-7.5 grains.

Personally I don't like softened water. Try bathing a 3 year old and they're as slippery as a greased pig.
 
City water, drilled or blasted well water ? What is in the water that would need to be removed before you heat it with a gas flame :|
... I think your tankless guy is in the water softener business.
 
Trials said:
City water, drilled or blasted well water ? What is in the water that would need to be removed before you heat it with a gas flame :|
... I think your tankless guy is in the water softener business.
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IMO the tank-less guy is in the screw people business. Theoretically the calcium in hard water builds up on heater surfaces and causes inefficiency and failures. Natural soft water (Rainwater) is great for rinsing. It's basically distilled by mother nature. The man made stuff does a switch from calcium to sodium that can cause other problems.

One big sell point is the energy saving bit on everything green. Great if you can afford it.
 
had one for years, first a chinese model then a rinnai.I call consumers gas they said it couldnt be installed in the home due to clearance. They wanted 40 -50 monthly forever probably much more now monthly for the Rinnai .

A friend of mine installed it easily and I own it outright and no monthly fees. Only drawback is you have to wait longer for the water. Big space savings in a small furnace room. These are the only kind you see in Europe.

If people in the home take long showers/baths pays for itself pretty quickly if you own it in gas savings. A regular water heater is always heating the tank back up. Regular tank is dry in 20 minutes, these never run out.

I do not run any water softeners to the unit. I think it is BS

BB
 
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No warranty without water softener but I’m guessing that wasn’t mentioned at the install (hence it only being mentioned now) which could void the contract (is this a form of linked sales which I think are illegal)? I hate pressure sales techniques and feel sorry for folks caught up in them.
 
I have a tankless water heater as well. It came with the house. It is not hooked up to a water softener. The only time I had problems with it and I wanted support from the manufacturer, they wanted to know if I conducted regular (yearly) cleaning cycles on it to ensure there wasn't a calcium/magnesium buildup. I bought the kit and ran through the cleaning process. That did not resolve the issue. I needed new ignitors. Easy repair and no problems since. It's been a few years now. Sorry that your friend got caught up in this.

I also live near Square 1. No problems with buildup deposits from the water system.
 
Have him check his contract or the manual of the heater first to make sure it actually says that in there. I used to live near Square One (north side of the 403) and the water was never hard enough to cause any problems with my plumbing. But then I had a standard water heater tank. Where I am now, the water is noticeably harder (based on calcium deposits on the show glass door and around faucets, and had to replace two faucet cartridges in 5 years) and I have a tankless Rinnai. It completely stopped working about 5 years ago, but has been fine since I had the rental company fix it, which was simply to clean out the filter. Didn't know enough at the time to ask whether it was hard water deposits or something else. I had done absolutely no maintenance on it up to that point, or since (I know, I should - read on).

Hopefully your friend's heater was installed "properly", which means with a set of service valves attached. This allows you to turn off the valves to the water pipes and allow you to hook up a hose to the tank to circulate vinegar or some other cleaning solution through the heater core to dissolve any deposits. A bucket, a small pump, and a garden hose is all the equipment you need. I just bought a pump and will be doing this on my rental to practice on for when I finally cancel the contract and buy one outright to replace it. It is my OPINION that if you maintain it this way occasionally, you don't need a water softener to prolong its life.

This is a good instructional video:
 
people get too worried about warranty and not having one

needed a furnace few houses ago, called a few contractors to quote
prices ranged from 4-5K installed, 95% efficiency with the variable DC motor

got looking on the net, found the same Amana unit that I preferred - for $1500 USD
drove to upstate NY, came back over, made in USA - no duty- just GST - dollar was close to par at the time

hired a TSSA installer to do the install - $750

one of the contractors while following up kept harping on the you have no warranty BS
I could have bought 2 of them and still saved 2K, and had a parts unit in my own stock

my point is, you can get caught up in the warranty scam and massively overpay
better off to keep the money in your own account and do mtc/repairs as required
 
It is not uncommon for the manufacturer to void a tankless warranty without a softener. I have installed hundreds over the years, they all required a softener to validate the warranty.
Having said that, if the annual flush and maintenance is performed, it shouldn't be a big issue, unless a major part failure occurs. That isn't cheap. The control module, power vent fan and several other bits can be very expensive if you're rooting the bill.
The other thing to consider is that you dont have to purchase a softener from the same company. Should be able to find someone to supply and install much cheaper.

Sent from my SM-A530W using Tapatalk
 
Iceman said:
It is not uncommon for the manufacturer to void a tankless warranty without a softener. I have installed hundreds over the years, they all required a softener to validate the warranty.
Having said that, if the annual flush and maintenance is performed, it shouldn't be a big issue, unless a major part failure occurs. That isn't cheap. The control module, power vent fan and several other bits can be very expensive if you're rooting the bill.
The other thing to consider is that you dont have to purchase a softener from the same company. Should be able to find someone to supply and install much cheaper.

Sent from my SM-A530W using Tapatalk
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Is a water softener a DIY project for a reasonably competent handyman? From what I gather a softener could be purchased for about what he was quoted for year of rental.
 
When you install your water softener, if its a modern house and you want it RIGHT, its not just fitting the softener into the cold input line.
Mine has a bypass for water on the cold side into the kitchen tap, I dont want soft water from the cold tap for cooking, and new lines were set so the exterior faucets are not soft water, I'm not watering plants with soft water.
The culligan man just wants the rent, they just solder it into the main water in pipe.

Yes renting allows you to call when anything needs service, My water softener (owned) has been running for 24yrs, I'd have paid for it 6 times in Culligan terms.
 
Every water softener I ever seen looked like it was used until it needed service and then abandoned or ignored. I passed on ever buying a home that had or needed one, just how much salt and consumables do they require and what do you do with the old salt and yuck that comes out of them?
 
Trials said:
Every water softener I ever seen looked like it was used until it needed service and then abandoned or ignored. I passed on ever buying a home that had or needed one, just how much salt and consumables do they require and what do you do with the old salt and yuck that comes out of them?
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When we bought our present home it had a full system softener. Water tasted like crap, you rinsed after a shower and still felt like you had suds on yourself and when I changed tap washers the brass bits were crumbly.

The sodium is often considered a factor in health. We got a good deal on the house because the old guy living in it had a stroke.
 
crankcall said:
When you install your water softener, if its a modern house and you want it RIGHT, its not just fitting the softener into the cold input line.
Mine has a bypass for water on the cold side into the kitchen tap, I dont want soft water from the cold tap for cooking, and new lines were set so the exterior faucets are not soft water, I'm not watering plants with soft water.
The culligan man just wants the rent, they just solder it into the main water in pipe.

Yes renting allows you to call when anything needs service, My water softener (owned) has been running for 24yrs, I'd have paid for it 6 times in Culligan terms.
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The upside to using PEX in modern houses is you have a decent shot of modifying the plumbing from within the mech room to give you the split system. Alternatively, if the water wasn't ridiculously hard I would consider running the softener in the supply for the hot water tank and leaving all cold water hard.
Just something else to keep in mind for those considering softeners. Hot tubs and pools explicitly call out soft water as a potential source of problems. You need to remineralize the water if you are using soft water for that purpose.
 
I also hate the way soft water makes you feel like you're still covered in soap. But in my new place I'm worried about the deposit build up as mentioned. I'm probably gonna try one of these from Costco, which sound perfect to me (leaves minerals in the water but reduces build-up, and is easily reversed and returned if it turns out to be bogus):

Calmat Electronic Anti-Scale and Rust Water Treatment System
 
Since I've had the soft water system, the water in my hot tub can go twice as long (probably longer) between changes. It's remarkably better.
For those of you thinking you have a layer of something on after rinsing in the shower, that smooth feeling, it simply means......you're clean.....fully rinsed. Rinsing is far and away better than the alternative. Laundry, dishes, washing the vehicles, etc......no comparison, soft water wins.
It is true that hard water is better for plants and flowers. A decent system will use a Fleck valve. There's a bypass on it.....turn it, and the system is either on, or off.
Salt is only used during regeneration, or cleaning......it takes a couple hrs. I have mine set to run (regen) every 10 days. It backwashes (using salt) and flushes all the collected hard minerals out the drain. Once thats done, the salt bath / wash just sits in a container, totally removed from any running water, until the next regen is set, or required.
There is no salt taste, but I still don't drink it. The softener removes hard compounds, not chemicals.
 
Relax said:
I also hate the way soft water makes you feel like you're still covered in soap. But in my new place I'm worried about the deposit build up as mentioned. I'm probably gonna try one of these from Costco, which sound perfect to me (leaves minerals in the water but reduces build-up, and is easily reversed and returned if it turns out to be bogus):

Calmat Electronic Anti-Scale and Rust Water Treatment System
Click to expand...
I'm surprised they don't throw in an electronic rust-proofer for your car with this as buy one get one free. Seems super sketchy. Only consumes 4 watts and treats water as it's used at whatever flow rate? Secondly, they wrap wires around a metal pipe. This very likely induces fields in the pipe but I would be shocked if there was much field in the water (and the secondary problem of whether a tiny field in the water would do anything anyway).
 
nobbie48 said:
When we bought our present home it had a full system softener. Water tasted like crap, you rinsed after a shower and still felt like you had suds on yourself and when I changed tap washers the brass bits were crumbly.

The sodium is often considered a factor in health. We got a good deal on the house because the old guy living in it had a stroke.
Click to expand...
That's terrible, was it from the water?
 
Gary said:
Since I've had the soft water system, the water in my hot tub can go twice as long (probably longer) between changes. It's remarkably better.
For those of you thinking you have a layer of something on after rinsing in the shower, that smooth feeling, it simply means......you're clean.....fully rinsed. Rinsing is far and away better than the alternative. Laundry, dishes, washing the vehicles, etc......no comparison, soft water wins.
It is true that hard water is better for plants and flowers. A decent system will use a Fleck valve. There's a bypass on it.....turn it, and the system is either on, or off.
Salt is only used during regeneration, or cleaning......it takes a couple hrs. I have mine set to run (regen) every 10 days. It backwashes (using salt) and flushes all the collected hard minerals out the drain. Once thats done, the salt bath / wash just sits in a container, totally removed from any running water, until the next regen is set, or required.
There is no salt taste, but I still don't drink it. The softener removes hard compounds, not chemicals.
Click to expand...


This is exactly my story, plumbing fixtures and shower doors all stay new looking, dishwasher lasts longer, you use a dob of shampoo instead of a big squirt to get lather. In the area I live, your better to have one than not. It literally pays for itself.
 
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