No. You're right though. My post was bad and I should feel bad.
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Stopped today for using City of Toronto HOV (Diamond) Lanes
- Thread starter MarcosSantiago
- Start date
awyala
Guest
Gonna fight the ticket? What's your plan of defence if you are? I am curious cause I have a nephew new to riding who was dinged in the exact spot for the same thing today. By-law doesn't even list Eglinton W, regardless of updated sign or not.
I would argue on this basis (conflicting statements, err on the side of the defence):
On City of Toronto roadways with HOV lanes, all motorcycles and scooters with number plates can now operate along with other eligible vehicles in the HOV lanes when they are in effect ( i.e. during the weekday morning and afternoon peak periods) . With the HOV lanes situated next to the curb, safety for these motorists is expected to be improved. A motorcycle means a self-propelled vehicle having a seat or saddle for the use of the driver and designed to travel on not more than three wheels in contact with the ground, and includes a motor scooter, but does not include a motor assisted bicycle
Once the existing HOV signs are altered to include a motorcycle/scooter pictogram, this change will take effect.
The City of Toronto HOV corridors include:
Might be worth a shot after dragging it out with a trial and disclosure.
Actually on second thought you might be able to argue that the by-law DOES state conflicting statements, the first of which being that Toronto HOV lanes NOW are eligible to motorcycles. Here is why: when they used "i.e." when describing what "effect" means, i.e. is used to clarify, NOT as an example. "e.g." is used for an example.
http://www.grammar-monster.com/easily_confused/eg_ie.htm
In this case the term used "in effect" was clarified as meaning operational hours. Later the by law then contradicts it's previous statement by not listing ALL Toronto HOV lanes, and then retracting the "now" statement.
That would be the defence I would go with. If you can prove the mayor ran out of funding to update the signs that might also help, as the intention may have been to include all HOV lanes also.
I would argue on this basis (conflicting statements, err on the side of the defence):
On City of Toronto roadways with HOV lanes, all motorcycles and scooters with number plates can now operate along with other eligible vehicles in the HOV lanes when they are in effect ( i.e. during the weekday morning and afternoon peak periods) . With the HOV lanes situated next to the curb, safety for these motorists is expected to be improved. A motorcycle means a self-propelled vehicle having a seat or saddle for the use of the driver and designed to travel on not more than three wheels in contact with the ground, and includes a motor scooter, but does not include a motor assisted bicycle
Once the existing HOV signs are altered to include a motorcycle/scooter pictogram, this change will take effect.
The City of Toronto HOV corridors include:
- Don Mills Road
between Overlea Boulevard and Finch Avenue East - Dufferin Street
between Steeprock Drive/Overbrook Place and Finch Avenue West - Dundas Street West
between Etobicoke Creek and Aukland Road - Eglinton Avenue East
between Leslie Street and Cedar Drive - Overlea Boulevard
between Millwood Road and Don Mills Road - Pape Avenue
between Danforth Avenue and Millwood Road - William R. Allen Rd
between Sheppard Avenue West and Steeprock Drive/Overbrook Place - Yonge Street
between Bishop Avenue/Hendon Avenue and Steeles Avenue
Might be worth a shot after dragging it out with a trial and disclosure.
Actually on second thought you might be able to argue that the by-law DOES state conflicting statements, the first of which being that Toronto HOV lanes NOW are eligible to motorcycles. Here is why: when they used "i.e." when describing what "effect" means, i.e. is used to clarify, NOT as an example. "e.g." is used for an example.
http://www.grammar-monster.com/easily_confused/eg_ie.htm
In this case the term used "in effect" was clarified as meaning operational hours. Later the by law then contradicts it's previous statement by not listing ALL Toronto HOV lanes, and then retracting the "now" statement.
That would be the defence I would go with. If you can prove the mayor ran out of funding to update the signs that might also help, as the intention may have been to include all HOV lanes also.
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You would be correct. This thread was more of an update on how police are unaware of this change.
SpeeDemoN
Well-known member
What about that line? I know on Dufferin south of finch to sheppard the signs don't show motorcycles, not sure about the other streets.
Today I spoke with Nazzareno Capano. Mr. Capano is the Manager, Transportation Infrastructure Mgnt. - Operational Planning & Policy, City of Toronto.
Mr. Capano advised that not all diamond lanes (Reserved lanes) are HOV lanes. Some of the Reserved lanes are not HOV lanes and do not allow motorcycles/scooters, and that the signage should reflect that.
Mr. Capano admitted that the website information was outdated. He said that he will confirm with his staff whether all of the HOV lanes have been updated to show the motorcycle/scooter pictogram and will update the website to reflect this. He said he will also have the list updated, if required, to confirm the HOV routes affected.
Here is Nazzareno's, contact information:
http://www.toronto.ca/311/knowledgebase/26/101000032926.html
Nazzareno Capano, Manager: 392-5348
Emai: ncapano@toronto.ca
Fax: 392-4808
Hours: M-F 8:30 am - 4:30 pm
Additional Information:
http://www.toronto.ca/311/knowledgebase/64/101000040264.html
So, If I understood Mr. Capano's statements and they are indeed correct, then the OP was travelling on a Reserved lane which does not allow for motorcycles/scooters, and should have been justifiably ticketed. Let's see after Mr. Capano reviews the information with his staff or if someone else has some factual information on the subject.
Mr. Capano advised that not all diamond lanes (Reserved lanes) are HOV lanes. Some of the Reserved lanes are not HOV lanes and do not allow motorcycles/scooters, and that the signage should reflect that.
Mr. Capano admitted that the website information was outdated. He said that he will confirm with his staff whether all of the HOV lanes have been updated to show the motorcycle/scooter pictogram and will update the website to reflect this. He said he will also have the list updated, if required, to confirm the HOV routes affected.
Here is Nazzareno's, contact information:
http://www.toronto.ca/311/knowledgebase/26/101000032926.html
Nazzareno Capano, Manager: 392-5348
Emai: ncapano@toronto.ca
Fax: 392-4808
Hours: M-F 8:30 am - 4:30 pm
Additional Information:
http://www.toronto.ca/311/knowledgebase/64/101000040264.html
So, If I understood Mr. Capano's statements and they are indeed correct, then the OP was travelling on a Reserved lane which does not allow for motorcycles/scooters, and should have been justifiably ticketed. Let's see after Mr. Capano reviews the information with his staff or if someone else has some factual information on the subject.
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MarcosSantiago
Well-known member
Very interesting twist to the story.
If that is the case, then this is another set of rules so confusing that no one can understand them properly, not even for proper and just enforcement.
I posted the same original post at the Toronto Moto Scooter Club
http://www.meetup.com/toronto-moto-scooter-club/boards/thread/27348242/0/
One of the guys over there posted the following:
MarcosSantiago
Well-known member
So, who is right? who is wrong?
What to do if you get a ticket?
Admittedly the website information is outdated, that much we know. Where can I see the actual by-law? Tried to find it and it is not online.
If you read my first post, before writing me a ticket, the officer called “Control” (Traffic Control?) to get confirmation ... and "Control" confirmed that motorcycles and scooters are allowed on Eglinton Avenue West. Where did "Control" get that information? Not from the City of Toronto website, because as already noted, Eglinton Avenue West is not even in the list, regardless of signs.
If you get a ticket, I'd suggest to send a disclosure request asking for the by-law and any other applicable definitions.
What to do if you get a ticket?
Admittedly the website information is outdated, that much we know. Where can I see the actual by-law? Tried to find it and it is not online.
If you read my first post, before writing me a ticket, the officer called “Control” (Traffic Control?) to get confirmation ... and "Control" confirmed that motorcycles and scooters are allowed on Eglinton Avenue West. Where did "Control" get that information? Not from the City of Toronto website, because as already noted, Eglinton Avenue West is not even in the list, regardless of signs.
If you get a ticket, I'd suggest to send a disclosure request asking for the by-law and any other applicable definitions.
Depends who you talk to, and their interpretation of right and wrong.
Perhaps you can send Nazzareno Capano an email with that question, perhaps you will get a written reply that may contain the by-law.
I would suggest, for now, to avoid lanes that do not have the motorcycle/scooter pictogram, or be prepared to fight a ticket.
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mattcanada
Well-known member
The lane he was in is not a HOV lane (note there is no car with a 2 or 3 picture), it is reserved lane for buses and taxis only, and further it is not on the listed HOV lanes, therefore OP should have been given a ticket, he just lucked out. And the rules about using the HOV lanes is not hard to understand, if there is no picture of a motorcycle on the sign we cannot use it. "Once the existing HOV signs are altered to include a motorcycle/scooter pictogram,this change will take effect."
As for "control" getting this info maybe they misunderstood of officer and thought it was Eglinton ave east (where motorcycles are allowed)? Unless Eglinton ave west was updated somewhere and we were just not informed about it...
As for "control" getting this info maybe they misunderstood of officer and thought it was Eglinton ave east (where motorcycles are allowed)? Unless Eglinton ave west was updated somewhere and we were just not informed about it...
awyala
Guest
Excellent work!
awyala
Guest
Once again, excellent work.
awyala
Guest
So does the latter statement abrogate the former?
awyala
Guest
The by-law on the website is confusing. In one sentence it says "now" and defines when they are in effect. A later sentence says they are in effect after the signs are updated. And then it follows with an uncomprehensive list of HOV / diamond lanes.
Aside from the motorcycle decal, what would distinguish an HOV lane, from a diamond lane, from a bus and taxi lane?
awyala
Guest
To party answer my own question:
This is the definition of an HOV lane:
http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/traveller/hov/index.shtml#whatis
[h=2]What is an HOV Lane?
[/h]
The sign above is used to identify HOV lanes on provincial highways.
HOV (High Occupancy Vehicle) lanes are designed to help move more people through congested areas. HOV lanes offer users a faster, more reliable commute, while also easing congestion in regular lanes - by moving more people in fewer vehicles.
HOV lanes on Highways 403, 404, 417 and the QEW are the inside (leftmost) lane and are identified by signs and diamond symbols on the pavement. The HOV lane is separated from the other general traffic lanes by a striped buffer zone. Vehicles carrying at least two people may enter and exit the HOV lane only at designated points, clearly identifiable by wide and closely spaced white broken lines and diamond symbol pavement markings.
[h=3]HOV Lane Rules[/h] HOV lane rules are enforced like any other rule of the road.
The HOV lane is separated from the other general traffic lanes by a striped buffer zone. It is illegal and unsafe to cross the striped buffer pavement markings. HOV lanes are open 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.
[h=3]Who can use HOV lanes?[/h] HOV lanes on provincial highways are reserved for any of the following passenger vehicles carrying at least two people (often referred to as 2+):
Emergency vehicles are permitted to use the HOV lanes at all times.
Single-occupant taxis and airport limousines are permitted in HOV lanes until July 1, 2015. Eligible vehicles must display a separate taxicab or limousine registration plate issued by a municipality or airport authority on the rear of the vehicle.
Drivers of electric vehicles with green licence plates will be granted access to high occupancy vehicle (HOV) lanes on 400-series highways until July 1, 2015, even if there is only one individual in the car. (See: Electric Vehicles – Ontario’s Green Plates) - http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/dandv/vehicle/electric/ev-green-plates.shtml)
[h=3]Which vehicles are NOT allowed to use HOV lanes?[/h]
This is the picture of the sign at the location in question:
http://maps.google.ca/?ll=43.691359...=W_3ewO6g97cjfIQx3qgoJw&cbp=12,123.32,,0,2.75
Looks to me like this is a City of Toronto HOV lane, regardless if it wasn't listed on the website. However the pdf copy of the bylaw Rob provided is explicit in stating:
"To amend former Metropolitan Toronto By-law No. 132-93, being a by-law to provide reserved lanes for designated classes of vehicles on certain former Metropolitan Roads, to permit plated motorcycles and scooters in HOV lanes."
This is the definition of an HOV lane:
http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/traveller/hov/index.shtml#whatis
[h=2]What is an HOV Lane?
[/h]
The sign above is used to identify HOV lanes on provincial highways.
HOV lanes on Highways 403, 404, 417 and the QEW are the inside (leftmost) lane and are identified by signs and diamond symbols on the pavement. The HOV lane is separated from the other general traffic lanes by a striped buffer zone. Vehicles carrying at least two people may enter and exit the HOV lane only at designated points, clearly identifiable by wide and closely spaced white broken lines and diamond symbol pavement markings.
[h=3]HOV Lane Rules[/h] HOV lane rules are enforced like any other rule of the road.
The HOV lane is separated from the other general traffic lanes by a striped buffer zone. It is illegal and unsafe to cross the striped buffer pavement markings. HOV lanes are open 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.
[h=3]Who can use HOV lanes?[/h] HOV lanes on provincial highways are reserved for any of the following passenger vehicles carrying at least two people (often referred to as 2+):
- Car
- Commercial truck less than 6.5 metres long
- Minivan
- Motorcycle
- Taxi or limousine
- Vehicles with a special green licence plate (plug-in hybrid electric or battery electric vehicle)
Emergency vehicles are permitted to use the HOV lanes at all times.
Single-occupant taxis and airport limousines are permitted in HOV lanes until July 1, 2015. Eligible vehicles must display a separate taxicab or limousine registration plate issued by a municipality or airport authority on the rear of the vehicle.
Drivers of electric vehicles with green licence plates will be granted access to high occupancy vehicle (HOV) lanes on 400-series highways until July 1, 2015, even if there is only one individual in the car. (See: Electric Vehicles – Ontario’s Green Plates) - http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/dandv/vehicle/electric/ev-green-plates.shtml)
[h=3]Which vehicles are NOT allowed to use HOV lanes?[/h]
- A vehicle with only the driver
- Motorcycles with only the driver
- Commercial trucks greater than 6.5 metres in length or with a gross weight of more than 4,500 kg
This is the picture of the sign at the location in question:
http://maps.google.ca/?ll=43.691359...=W_3ewO6g97cjfIQx3qgoJw&cbp=12,123.32,,0,2.75
Looks to me like this is a City of Toronto HOV lane, regardless if it wasn't listed on the website. However the pdf copy of the bylaw Rob provided is explicit in stating:
"To amend former Metropolitan Toronto By-law No. 132-93, being a by-law to provide reserved lanes for designated classes of vehicles on certain former Metropolitan Roads, to permit plated motorcycles and scooters in HOV lanes."
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