stop sign ticket

[slogan]

I got a ticket, says I failed the stop sign. That's not true. I did stop. Just because of there were nobody on the road, I did not really "count to three", but I did stop!
The "a/a" officer guy seam to be cold... He said something about two stops (there is only one stop sign). I told him that I disagree with him, but didn't want to waste my time debating with a cold cop...
Well, I gonna fight it, for sure!

What are my options?
I'll request the disclosure, but what next? He had no witnesses... he has nothing to prove his words.

too many "hungry" cops on the road... dammit!

 

[PLau]

I got a ticket, says I failed the stop sign. That's not true. I did stop. Just because of there were nobody on the road, I did not really "count to three", but I did stop!
The black officer guy seam to be cold... He said something about to stops (there is only one stop sign). I told him that I disagree with him, but did want to waste my time debating with a cold cop...
Well, I gonna fight, for sure!

What are my options?
I'll request the disclosure, but what next? He had no witnesses... he has nothing to prove his words.

too many "hungry" cops on the road... dammit!

I like how you mentioned that he was black.

Anyways, its his word vs yours. Try finding points to argue such as if the stop sign is clearly visible and if the officer had a clear line of sight of you while "you didn't stop at the stop sign".

If anything, hope your court date gets pushed back for an 11b or hire a paralegal.

 

[geoff-9]

The black officer guy seam to be cold...

why is the officer being black relevant to this thread? does that make the officer less credible or something? i cant stand it when blacks say they were only stopped because the officer was white so dont sink to that level and encourage racism.

there are lots of defences you can use this time of year such as could not see the stop line due to snow on the ground. get creative.

 

[OpenGambit]

I got a ticket, says I failed the stop sign. That's not true. I did stop. Just because of there were nobody on the road, I did not really "count to three", but I did stop!
The black officer guy seam to be cold... He said something about to stops (there is only one stop sign). I told him that I disagree with him, but did want to waste my time debating with a cold cop...
Well, I gonna fight, for sure!

What are my options?
I'll request the disclosure, but what next? He had no witnesses... he has nothing to prove his words.

too many "hungry" cops on the road... dammit!

The Cop is the witness, thats why he has to show up.

 

[FiReSTaRT]

why is the officer being black relevant to this thread? does that make the officer less credible or something?

Could be officer Bubbles

On a serious note, you're just supposed to stop moving. The law doesn't prescribe for how long. Of course, your typical cop is gonna say that your vehicle never stopped moving, so other than he-said-she-said you will have to attack his credibility in court. Don't play the race card or personal perspective.. You just have to convince the JP that there is a good chance he was unable to properly determine whether your wheels stopped turning or not. Another thing.. For most tickets, it doesn't pay off to testify in court, but if you're absolutely certain of your innocence, it will work to your benefit, especially with JP's who (improperly) handle these matters civil court-style (based on a balance of probabilities and not going by the reasonable doubt standard). If you do testify, do not get emotional, just be short and to the point. I came up to the intersection, made a full stop on the white line as I was checking for other traffic, since it was clear, I went through the intersection.

A couple of notes:
-If the constable was behind you or in front of you, he can't tell for sure whether your wheels stopped moving
-If he was in a side street, they often cannot get a good view of your wheels if you stop on the white line because they're typically put so far back that you can't check for cross-traffic if you stop on it. (my typical practice is to stop on the white line and then slowly roll forwards, but that might appear as a rolling stop)

 

[iFly55]

I got a ticket, says I failed the stop sign. That's not true. I did stop. Just because of there were nobody on the road, I did not really "count to three", but I did stop!
The black officer guy seam to be cold... He said something about to stops (there is only one stop sign). I told him that I disagree with him, but did want to waste my time debating with a cold cop...
Well, I gonna fight, for sure!

What are my options?
I'll request the disclosure, but what next? He had no witnesses... he has nothing to prove his words.

too many "hungry" cops on the road... dammit!

slogan is this three second thing all in your head? did the officer tell you that you didn't stop for three seconds? did the officer acknowledge that you stopped?

if the officer testifies under oath that you did stop, but just not for three seconds you already win

because the HTA simply says you need to come to a complete a stop prior to proceeding

Stop at through highway

136. (1) Every driver or street car operator approaching a stop sign at an intersection,

(a) shall stop his or her vehicle or street car at a marked stop line or, if none, then immediately before entering the nearest crosswalk or, if none, then immediately before entering the intersection

HTA says nothing about stopping for three seconds

there are lots of defences you can use this time of year such as could not see the stop line due to snow on the ground. get creative.

doesn't the HTA already covers this, if you can't see the line you stop at the crosswalk/intersection?

 

[slogan]

OK! Thanks for replies!

First of all: I do not care about particular cop's color, I just mentioned, that he was looking to be very cold, and his cap with ear flaps was tightly tied up on his head, even it was only -5 degree...
I tried to see some response in his eyes, but he really did not care about me, or my motion to say something, so I just dropped the chance to argue with him.
I did not clearly understand what he tried to mention. He said something about two intersections, or two stops, or whatever. There is only one stop sign.
The other thing, why I did not want to discuss anything with cop - I wanna see his notes. What I found out last time - if you start discussing - then cops write their notes more precisely.

I just looked at the google map, the point, where he was standing (about 30-50 ft away down to the street which I was turning to) doesn't give pure visibility of the stop line.

What I did: I made a full stop at the stop sign, which is aligned with the stop line at the spot. I did check both sides if there where no cars coming. There where no traffic, no pedestrians, I slowly started rolling towards intersection while double checking the traffic from the left side (from the bridge). Cause there was nobody, I turned, seeing the cop car standing in about 20-25 meters down the street.

The next moment the cop jumps on the driveway and is waiving me. I stop behind the cop car, open the window.

The cop starts telling me something about two intersections and that I did not stop. I tell him, that I did stop. He looks to be cold and not friendly. He asks me for documents - I decided at this point, that there's nothing I can discuss with him.

While the cop is checking my documents, my license plate and so on, I see at least two cars proceeding through the same intersection with no stop at all.

 

[FiReSTaRT]

Make sure to take pictures and also bring diagrams of the intersection to court. The cop will have to indicate where he was standing. Make sure to include any obstructing objects.

 

[Salos Dafee]

I think you will lose this one.

Basically, it is two against one against you.

Cops have shown me time and again that they do not care what the truth is, even under oath. I have seen cops lie in their testimony, in order to get convictions. Then, if you tell the truth, it is your word against the cop's word. The magistrate judging the case also wants to register a conviction, so the magistrate will choose to believe the cop and not believe you.

If I understand the situation accurately, you stopped at the line, then inched forward and perceived an opportunity to go safely through the intersection. But the cop didn't see you stopped, only seeing you inch forward without stopping and then go through the intersection.

Perhaps you should concentrate on the distance between the stop line and the proper vantage point for determining you could safely go through. If you can establish that is a significant distance, say three meters, you may be able to convince the magistrate that the cop merely didn't notice you "way back from the corner" where the line requires you to stop, and where in fact you did stop.

You cannot, CANNOT suggest the cop is lying. That IMMEDIATELY puts the magistrate against you, and dooms your chances. If you can suggest that you did your best, by stopping where you had to stop, and by properly ascertaining the way was clear; and the cop also did his best, by watching all the traffic at this busy corner, and by seeing you go slowly through, but the cop simply did not observe you come to a full stop, because that was not an action that required him to take any action, and it happened at the stop line, distant a full three meters (but you measure it, OK?) from the place where you need to be to determine passage is safe.

Understand that you must measure the distance, and you may ask the cop if he measured the distance. If you did, and he didn't, then you can exaggerate it a tad, because nobody can contradict you on the measurement. If THEY don't feel any need to tell the truth, YOU needn't ... but please be careful when stretching the truth. Four meters OK, but not twelve, eh?

Good luck, and please remember to tell us how it came out.

 

[Rob MacLennan]

Salos Dafee: If you persist in making statements like the one I just deleted from your post above mine then, rather than just deleting them, I will issue infractions.

I believe that the spelling and grammar in this post are both correct.

 

[f1mauro]

Watched a cop monitoring the stop sign in front of my house a couple weeks ago. I noticed he allowed the very slow rollers through but nabbed the cars that coasted through. He looked caucasian if that matters?

 

[slogan]

Well, I applied for a trail today. They said, I gonna get a letter with the date in six month.

I want really to see disclosure, cause that what cop said (if I understand it the right way) did sound strange to me at some point. I gonna try to do my best, cause I don't wanna have a ticket for "failed to stop". Cause I always stop, never roll through, as most ppl do. And I always perform foot-down-stop on stop signs when on my bike.

I'll post here, once closer to the court date.

Thanks for everybody's replies!

:binky:

 

[FiReSTaRT]

Remember not to use the disclosure form in the office.. You can download some good ones (never include your phone number) and fax them in. Hell, you could do the same with your 4F. Check out the ticketcombat site as they have something written on the topic. Saves you time, parking fees and most importantly, you request what you specifically need and not what the prosecutor says you need.

 

[RockerGuy]

subscribed

 

[slogan]

OK.

Now while I am waiting for a disclosure, wanna know, what are my options...

I had a passenger in a car. Can she be a second wittiness from my side?

 

[FiReSTaRT]

OK.

Now while I am waiting for a disclosure, wanna know, what are my options...

I had a passenger in a car. Can she be a second wittiness from my side?

Yes.. Won't be given much credibility, but every little bit helps.

 

[slogan]

My trail date is in a week. They said that to prepare the disclosure they need 6 to 8 weeks. So 8 weeks past since the date I applied for disclosure, and I still did not get any call from them (I did call them about a month ago, and they said they gonna call me, once it is ready).
Can this be a reason to shift my trail date - I need a time to prepare my defense.

Thanks for advice.

 

[FiReSTaRT]

You can get your charges thrown out. Do not accept the disclosure if they try to hand it to you on the court date. A good Crown will immediately withdraw the charges. A bad one will try to proceed with the trial. Before they even ask you how you plead, ask for the JP to dismiss the case because you did not receive the disclosure package from the Crown. If the Crown starts arguing that they have it in court, state that you cannot give it proper review on trial date and adjourning the case would result in more time off work and additional expenses due to no fault of your own. At worst they adjourn the case and you can get off on 11b next time around.

 

[slogan]

Thanks.

What if I will receive the disclosure during next few days left - I still need a reasonable time to prepare my defense. should I ask for changing the trail date?

 

[Rob MacLennan]

Thanks.

What if I will receive the disclosure during next few days left - I still need a reasonable time to prepare my defense. should I ask for changing the trail date?

If you're also hoping for an 11b, then you want the delay to be blamed on The Crown. You need to state that you received it late, giving you insufficient time to prepare your defence, and hopefully the JP will grant a delay on those terms. If not, and any further delay goes against you, then it doesn't count towards an 11b.