So I've had a Comp Werkes FE for 1 night and morning

[Rob MacLennan]

Sorry but what are fenders and fender eliminators??

Google images didn't show me much, or maybe I just wasn't looking at the right spots.

On a motorcycle the 'fender' is traditionally the plastic piece, on which the license plate is also mounted. A 'fender eliminator' removed this plastic piece, then relocates the license plate to a smaller metal bracket. Sometimes this mounts in roughly the same place where the original plastic piece was attached but occasionally it moves it well forward, to a point forward of the rear wheel. They are illegal for a variety of reasons. The angle at which they are mounted can make it difficult to read the plate. They frequently do not come with the legally required license plate light. They eliminate the 'mud guard' that is mandated under the HTA. They can be mounted in such a way that the view of the plate is partially or completely obscured, from some angles.

As Brian P has stated on several previous occasions the only way to be sure to be able to fight such a charge is to have the plate mounted in the manufacturer's original manner, as this can be shown to comply with the CMVSS (Federal safety standards for manufacturers).

 

[油井緋色]

Curious question Rob,

why can't I just go to early resolution, bring the bike, tell whoever is judging to get out there and tell me where they can't see the plate as if they were a car? This law seems way too loose when I looked at the definition.

 

[Rob MacLennan]

Curious question Rob,

why can't I just go to early resolution, bring the bike, tell whoever is judging to get out there and tell me where they can't see the plate as if they were a car? This law seems way too loose when I looked at the definition.

Well, for one thing, I would wish you good luck in getting any bureaucrat to actually stir his butt out of his chair. Point two is that the condition of the bike, at time of First Attendance, doesn't necessarily reflect how it looked at the time of the infraction notice. The third point would be that it's how it looked, at the time of the infraction, that you have to argue. Dated pictures could possibly be used to do this.

Ultimately, though, if the plate is not on the rear-most portion of the motorcycle and mounted horizontally without appreciable slant, it would be difficult to sustain an argument that it's visible from every necessary angle.

 

[gnatwest]

Firstly the early resolution is to plead guilty.

Secondly they will never go outside to look.

Curious question Rob,

why can't I just go to early resolution, bring the bike, tell whoever is judging to get out there and tell me where they can't see the plate as if they were a car? This law seems way too loose when I looked at the definition.

 

[油井緋色]

Well, for one thing, I would wish you good luck in getting any bureaucrat to actually stir his butt out of his chair. Point two is that the condition of the bike, at time of First Attendance, doesn't necessarily reflect how it looked at the time of the infraction notice. The third point would be that it's how it looked, at the time of the infraction, that you have to argue. Dated pictures could possibly be used to do this.

Ultimately, though, if the plate is not on the rear-most portion of the motorcycle and mounted horizontally without appreciable slant, it would be difficult to sustain an argument that it's visible from every necessary angle.

I see a huge logic fault with this law. Motorcycle plates have font smaller than car plates, you HAVE to get close and personal to see anyway. If there are 3 lanes and you are riding in the center, a cop could easily catch the plate (via the werkers kit which also comes with an LED light) on any of the 3 lanes. If you're further than that, good luck even reading the letters on a stock bike without binoculars.

....oh well, at least I haven't been bothered about it yet *knock wood*.

Firstly the early resolution is to plead guilty.

Secondly they will never go outside to look.

I don't know my terms very well, but you know what I mean =P

 

[Rob MacLennan]

I see a huge logic fault with this law. Motorcycle plates have font smaller than car plates, you HAVE to get close and personal to see anyway. If there are 3 lanes and you are riding in the center, a cop could easily catch the plate (via the werkers kit which also comes with an LED light) on any of the 3 lanes. If you're further than that, good luck even reading the letters on a stock bike without binoculars.

....oh well, at least I haven't been bothered about it yet *knock wood*.

And if you get closer then the bike's tail section can block the view, due to the angle. The faulty logic that I see here is in running with that sort of eliminator; not with the law.

 

[Macs]

I see a huge logic fault with this law. Motorcycle plates have font smaller than car plates, you HAVE to get close and personal to see anyway. If there are 3 lanes and you are riding in the center, a cop could easily catch the plate (via the werkers kit which also comes with an LED light) on any of the 3 lanes. If you're further than that, good luck even reading the letters on a stock bike without binoculars.

....oh well, at least I haven't been bothered about it yet *knock wood*.


I don't know my terms very well, but you know what I mean =P

I accidentally pulled the negative terminal on my plate light out last night, went by 3 YRP cops, they didn't care. I was amazed

 

[nfq]

I accidentally pulled the negative terminal on my plate light out last night, went by 3 YRP cops, they didn't care. I was amazed

most times, don't give them a reason to look at you/pull you over, they won't.

But if they do, you'll get the full "combo and a side of fries" kind of tickets. Mud guard, rear fender, lights, plates, etc.

 

[油井緋色]

I accidentally pulled the negative terminal on my plate light out last night, went by 3 YRP cops, they didn't care. I was amazed

Where'd you get the ticket? And btw, did you ride with a few guys last week from Second Cup on Thursday night?

 

[Macs]

Where'd you get the ticket? And btw, did you ride with a few guys last week from Second Cup on Thursday night?

The original ticket was at Green Lane/Leslie and nope, wasn't me

 

[油井緋色]

The original ticket was at Green Lane/Leslie and nope, wasn't me

Wow that is a really random place to get a ticket. You got nothing else?! I thought this was a "would you like fries with that" type ticket.

 

[Macs]

Wow that is a really random place to get a ticket. You got nothing else?! I thought this was a "would you like fries with that" type ticket.

Yeah he just happened to be turning from Green Lane onto Leslie, I may or may not have been speeding. Only got the plate and turn signal tickets though.

 

[Brian P]

I see a huge logic fault with this law. Motorcycle plates have font smaller than car plates, you HAVE to get close and personal to see anyway. If there are 3 lanes and you are riding in the center, a cop could easily catch the plate (via the werkers kit which also comes with an LED light) on any of the 3 lanes. If you're further than that, good luck even reading the letters on a stock bike without binoculars.

That the letters on the government-issued license plate are difficult to read (if the plate is clean) - is NOT YOUR FAULT.

That with one of those "fender eliminators" the license plate is in a position where some portion of the bike, including the tire and the passenger pegs in the assessment and at all plausible levels of suspension compression, AND including the tail section of the bike if the plate is tucked underneath it and you hypothetically are looking at it from nearly above, IS your fault for installing that kit instead of leaving it stock.

In the absence of black and white numbers for the angles etc. (which there aren't), the required field of view that the license plate has to be visible extends from directly beside the bike at the position of the license plate to the left side, swinging all the way around the back, to directly beside the bike at the right side, and with the observation height extending from that of an ant (ground level) to straight up. If ANYthing ANYwhere blocks the view of the license plate from ANY position within that range, then it could be interpreted as being "obstructed".

Yes, the legally-prescribed license plate lamp, which is usually sitting above the plate and sticking out a little, will usually block it if viewed from straight up. BUT ... The existence of that license plate lamp is legally prescribed, AND assuming it is the stock license plate lamp, its position is NOT YOUR FAULT.

Yes, I realize that I am taking it to an extreme. But the stock position of the license plate - or something resembling it - fulfills these requirements. If you pull the license plate ahead, it reduces the angles from which it can be viewed (particularly in the up/down direction). That reduction is now YOUR responsibility.

If you are riding a bike with stock license plate and rear fender etc then (A) it will generally be beyond criticism from the way the relevant laws are written, and (B) any deficiencies that may exist are NOT YOUR FAULT because YOU didn't build the bike.

As soon as you install something that is not stock then any deficiency or criticism, however slight, becomes YOUR responsibility.

 

[油井緋色]

^
And what if we didn't install it and it was safetied that way?

 

[Rob MacLennan]

^
And what if we didn't install it and it was safetied that way?

Then the guy doing the safety screwed up, since it clearly states in the safety requirements that:

1. (1) The motorcycle shall have,

(a) where they were originally installed, securely mounted fenders, mudguards and operative footrests;
​

but you are also required to know the law yourself.

 

[RockerGuy]

Maybe cause I'm old(er) now than I was before or just don't care for the plastic-y bits, I just leave it as near stock as possible. Like you said, not worth the hassle. Now it's more things that will make the bike more comfortable/faster/better for me (or at least my perception).

How are you gonna hang with the cool kids?

 

[Brian P]

Maybe cause I'm old(er) now than I was before or just don't care for the plastic-y bits, I just leave it as near stock as possible. Like you said, not worth the hassle. Now it's more things that will make the bike more comfortable/faster/better for me (or at least my perception).

^ This. Generally, if it doesn't make the bike more comfortable/faster/better, I don't do it.

Having said that ... I do own a motorcycle in which the license plate is not attached to the stock bracket (modded for drag racing that I've never had time to do, but that's another story). The wheel won't clear the stock fender ... had to cut that shorter, but the plate is mounted to the two holes that previously held the license plate lamp (up a bit higher), I used a couple of LED license plate bulbs, I bought a red DOT-marked reflector and made a little bracket to hold that above the license plate, I left the stock rear signals and side-facing red reflectors in place in their original location. At first glance, it looks OEM. The license plate is still on the back of the bodywork - that it is sitting an inch higher doesn't change its visibility. Everything is there that is supposed to be there and everything that has to be DOT-marked is, with the one unavoidable exception being the mud-guard issue, and I've never, ever, heard of anyone being ticketed for that. The wording of the mud-guard requirements in the HTA is so vague and poorly written that you could argue that the stock rear fenders on all motorcycles (all vehicles?) are insufficient to comply. Given the number of times that I've been blinded by spray coming off of fully mud-guard-equipped transport trucks on the road while driving in the rain, there is probably a fair argument that there is no possible way to fully comply with the mud-guard requirements in HTA - hence why no one seems to ever gets charged with this.

 

[Rob MacLennan]

^ This. Generally, if it doesn't make the bike more comfortable/faster/better, I don't do it.

Having said that ... I do own a motorcycle in which the license plate is not attached to the stock bracket (modded for drag racing that I've never had time to do, but that's another story). The wheel won't clear the stock fender ... had to cut that shorter, but the plate is mounted to the two holes that previously held the license plate lamp (up a bit higher), I used a couple of LED license plate bulbs, I bought a red DOT-marked reflector and made a little bracket to hold that above the license plate, I left the stock rear signals and side-facing red reflectors in place in their original location. At first glance, it looks OEM. The license plate is still on the back of the bodywork - that it is sitting an inch higher doesn't change its visibility. Everything is there that is supposed to be there and everything that has to be DOT-marked is, with the one unavoidable exception being the mud-guard issue, and I've never, ever, heard of anyone being ticketed for that. The wording of the mud-guard requirements in the HTA is so vague and poorly written that you could argue that the stock rear fenders on all motorcycles (all vehicles?) are insufficient to comply. Given the number of times that I've been blinded by spray coming off of fully mud-guard-equipped transport trucks on the road while driving in the rain, there is probably a fair argument that there is no possible way to fully comply with the mud-guard requirements in HTA - hence why no one seems to ever gets charged with this.

They actually work fairly well in that you might get hit with a fair bit of spray, but not a lot of rocks and mud. Imagine in they weren't there.

 

[油井緋色]

They actually work fairly well in that you might get hit with a fair bit of spray, but not a lot of rocks and mud. Imagine in they weren't there.

I was out on a sunny day but the ground was still kinda wet. I got stuck behind a truck at around 80km/h during semi-rush hour (not really grid lock). When I got to work, it looked like I got peed on...and that was from maybe 5-8 seconds =(

 

[Rob MacLennan]

I was out on a sunny day but the ground was still kinda wet. I got stuck behind a truck at around 80km/h during semi-rush hour (not really grid lock). When I got to work, it looked like I got peed on...and that was from maybe 5-8 seconds =(

As I said to Brian, imagine what you would have looked like if the truck HADN'T had mud guards.