Snell taking a beating.

[mimico_polak]

Forum Sponsor

anything under $500 is junk

I love my $300 BELL helmets. Have had the Vortex (twice) and the BELL RS-1 so far and they fit perfect for my head shape. Plus not everyone had the transition visor when I bought them.

Might look at other options when the time comes but for now these fit the bill pretty well.

 

[MSRP]

I have the end all, be all solution to all these issues, one that make everyone apart from Mr. Wallet happy.
Keep your SNELL
Buy an ECE
In a nutshell, I think they're concluding that SNELL works great for collisions at high speeds and in a cage
ECE is arguably better for low speeds and therefore 2 wheeled street collisions

I don't think there is ONE helmet that ticks all the boxes for the BEST protection in all applications.
Good thing cheap SNELL/DOT can be found just over $100

 

[TK4]

This seems a bit cold and harsh. Guy tells you his spouse had a fall that left her in a wheelchair and you nitpick and then mock him.

I think Wingboy's message was that brain injuries can be very serious and that even a minor fall at home can have terrible consequences. You don't have to be in a "serious accident" to get hurt.

Not meant to be harsh, I am sorry for his wife's misfortune. Like the disclaimer on the box says 'this helmet will not protect you under all unforeseeable circumstances". I'm willing to bet that household accidents cause just as many, if not more serious injuries than motorcycling does. Anyone care to look up the stats ?

 

[nakkers]

I think the video brought to light some interesting information and might even have some folks rethink their next helmet choice. Or maybe not?

Sure, I fall into the category of name brands that seem to be trusted and don’t get too riled up if I read about a fallen rider that perished from a head injury wearing the best helmet made.

I think the question for me is where does things go from here? Snell did a good thing and it’s outdated for motorcycling and likely good for automotive purposes.

Riders do roll and tumble but they also smack against walls, guardrails and other objects with a high impact.

I think a helmet that remains secure while a rider is twisting, rolling and impacting things along the way is something a safety organization should concern themselves with and find a way to have a meaningful certification classification for our safety.

We ask a lot from helmets beside just keeping us safe. They need to be comfortable over a period of time and provide decent vision along with ventilation for a large population of various head sizes and shapes.

They need to be light…..quiet…..accommodate comm units, visor tints/options.

I’m more informed now but, happy to use my Shoei and feel relatively safe while riding. Hopefully I never have to find out differently from a real world event to cause doubt or my death.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[TwistedKestrel]

I have the end all, be all solution to all these issues, one that make everyone apart from Mr. Wallet happy.
Keep your SNELL
Buy an ECE
In a nutshell, I think they're concluding that SNELL works great for collisions at high speeds and in a cage
ECE is arguably better for low speeds and therefore 2 wheeled street collisions

I don't think there is ONE helmet that ticks all the boxes for the BEST protection in all applications.
Good thing cheap SNELL/DOT can be found just over $100

I don't think that's the right conclusion to be drawing from this.

We've had a larger discussion about how Snell M2020 interacts with FIM FRHPhe-01/02, will see if I can find it later. But if I recall correctly, Snell M2020R is compatible with FRHPhe, while M2020D is not. And the FIM is not concerned with street collision scenarios

 

[Jayv]

I haven't watched the entire video I will do that later tonight.

From F9's own site when selecting ECE helmets this one shows up. Because this has no Snell rating it would never be on my radar as a spare lid for the race track, in my mind a helmet has to have both DOT/Snell rating to be considered a quality lid.

Qualifier is a budget helmet, but only rated DOT and ECE

What's next, does ECE get trumped by BSI ratings?

No Shoei or Arai has ECE ratings on F9's site.

Basically its a choice of Icon and HJC, Icon were the ones that had the helmet with the horns on it a few years ago, so I don't care how safe a lab says their products are.

https://fortnine.ca/en/bell-qualifier-dlx-blackout-helmet

 

[Brian P]

What I learned is that Snell M2020R is a watered-down set of requirements explicitly so that Snell can apply their badge (and presumably charge a royalty) for applying their name to an otherwise FIM or ECE22.06 helmet, and accomplishes nothing that ECE22.06 doesn't do. So ... if you have a helmet bearing ECE22.05 or 22.06 compliance markings, you can disregard Snell, because it's adding nothing of value.

Snell without ECE22.06 means the helmet is meant to pass Snell's double-impact test and doesn't necessarily get tested for ECE22.06's battery of other requirements. I consider ECE's battery of other requirements to be of more value than needing a helmet to survive two hard impacts in the same spot, which is an unlikely scenario, street or track, so I will continue to look for FIM or ECE helmets and disregard Snell.

FIM might not be concerned with street impact scenarios but "fall off bike while travelling at speed", same thing, doesn't matter track or street, you're falling from the same distance and moving at a lot faster than you can run.

It's pretty apparent while reading this:

Helmet Safety Standards 2019: FIM FRHPhe, ECE 22.05, DOT FMVSS 218 & Snell Updates

A few things have changed in helmet safety standards for 2019, and there may be a whole new factor for potential motorcycle helmet buyers to consider.

ultimatemotorcycling.com

... that the FIM and ECE22.06 requirements are very thoroughly researched by people who know far more about the subject matter than I do.

Good enough for me.

 

[TK4]

No Shoei or Arai has ECE ratings on F9's site.

They both provide ECE approved helmets for other markets - just not for North America. Why, I do not know.

 

[Brian P]

No Shoei or Arai has ECE ratings on F9's site.

Those manufacturers may have made the conscious decision to produce a different helmet for the North American market than for the rest of the world.

Shoei and Arai helmets sold in Europe will most certainly be ECE compliant ... they have to be.

 

[Jayv]

They both provide ECE approved helmets for other markets - just not for North America. Why, I do not know.

What I learned is that Snell M2020R is a watered-down set of requirements explicitly so that Snell can apply their badge (and presumably charge a royalty) for applying their name to an otherwise FIM or ECE22.06 helmet, and accomplishes nothing that ECE22.06 doesn't do. So ... if you have a helmet bearing ECE22.05 or 22.06 compliance markings, you can disregard Snell, because it's adding nothing of value.

Snell without ECE22.06 means the helmet is meant to pass Snell's double-impact test and doesn't necessarily get tested for ECE22.06's battery of other requirements. I consider ECE's battery of other requirements to be of more value than needing a helmet to survive two hard impacts in the same spot, which is an unlikely scenario, street or track, so I will continue to look for FIM or ECE helmets and disregard Snell.

FIM might not be concerned with street impact scenarios but "fall off bike while travelling at speed", same thing, doesn't matter track or street, you're falling from the same distance and moving at a lot faster than you can run.

It's pretty apparent while reading this:


... that the FIM and ECE22.06 requirements are very thoroughly researched by people who know far more about the subject matter than I do.

Good enough for me.

ECE22.05 compliant but not Snell approved.

https://fortnine.ca/en/ls2-of570-verso-solid-helmet

https://fortnine.ca/en/afx-fx-99-solid-helmet

That AFX looks like something sold at Walmart and Can tire.

I will take a Shoei RF1400 any day of the week over those two.


Hopefully the Snell rep that posted a few months ago will chime in.

 

[Brian P]

You can find cheap Snell approved helmets, too.

 

[TwistedKestrel]

What's interesting is comparing the lists of helmets that have M2020D certification vs M2020R certification, remembering that M2020R is the "compromise" version.

Snell certified helmets - M2020D list 60 helmets at time of writing - all mainstream Arai and Shoei helmets go with this one
Snell certified helmets - M2020R list 1 (one!) helmet at time of writing

Edit: And as far as I can tell, the single M2020R helmet (LS2 MX419) does not meet any other standard except DOT, thus making its choice of standard somewhat suspicious

 

[Roadghost]

Or a minor accident. My wife fell about 24" onto a plastic floor and suffered 2 minor bleeds and a major bleed on her brain. Left her in a wheelchair.
Even if she has been wearing a helmet, it might not have made any difference. The brain impacts the inside of your skull in an impact and that is what causes the damage.
There is so much dependant on circumstance.
This is why i scoff at anyone that says "i only ride casually and just on the street".

So, this is the crux of the problem with helmets and the snake oil salesmen who sell them. Your wife *may* have suffered a less severe injury because at that low speed the 1.5 inches of padding on a motorcycle helmet would have done its job. Basically the helmet's first and foremost job is to disperse the energy of the impact over a broader area to avoid skull fracture. Secondly the padding inside the helmet will, on a very limited basis, absorb some of the impact energy. I believe it was the Hurt study or one similar that I read (link below) that established that motorcycle helmets are effective in head impacts up to 28mph. That is, your head hits an object at up to 28mph and a helmet will be at least 37% effective at preventing injury. Past that speed what happens is exactly what happened to your wife: your brain, suspended in fluid within your skull will rip loose from vital arteries and slam against the wall of your skull causing a concussion.

The new ECE standard apparently attempts to improve on that 28mph limit by softening the outer layer of the helmet so it can absorb energy at the expense of dispersion. I haven't seen any studies to prove that this will actually work. The problem of energy absorption has been studied for some time over complaints that helmets were too hard. To me the ECE standard looks like an experiment based on a hypothesis, rather than something proven - unless someone can point me to a study.

I have always believed based on the studies I have seen that a full-faced DOT helmet is just as good protection as a full-faced Snell helmet.

This is the bible on motorcycle accidents. The Hurt data are indisputable. Covers everything including the SMIDSY:

(PDF) Motorcycle accident cause factors and identification of countermeasures, Volume 1: Technical report

PDF | On Jan 1, 1981, HH Hurt and others published Motorcycle accident cause factors and identification of countermeasures, Volume 1: Technical report | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate

www.researchgate.net

See also, be wary of that expensive helmet and the false sense of security it gives you:

(PDF) Public Safety Legislation and the Risk Compensation Hypothesis: The Example of Motorcycle Helmet Legislation

PDF | The ‘experiment’ in the United States of America in which twenty-eight states in the latter half of the 1970s repealed their laws which made the... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate

www.researchgate.net

Head and Neck injuries:

Head and neck injuries to motorcycle and moped riders—With special regard to the effect of protective helmets

Download Citation | Head and neck injuries to motorcycle and moped riders—With special regard to the effect of protective helmets | In a consecutive series of 132 motorcycle and moped riders killed in 1977-1983 in southern Sweden and examined post mortem, almost half of the... | Find, read and...

www.researchgate.net

 

[Baggsy]

You can find cheap Snell approved helmets, too.

I remember buying an $80 Snell helmet from GP Bikes years ago. Might still have it around.

 

[Priller]

Those manufacturers may have made the conscious decision to produce a different helmet for the North American market than for the rest of the world.

Shoei and Arai helmets sold in Europe will most certainly be ECE compliant ... they have to be.

A number of manufacturers have long made two models, one for North America, and one for Europe (not sure which they sell in Japan, which has their own JIS standard). Due to the ability to have less stiff shells, the Euro versions have typically been lighter by 2-300 g. Arai and Shoei in particular have done this for ages.

My recently purchased Scorpion EXO-R1 that I ordered from Europe is 200 g lighter than the North American version. The Euro version passed FIM standards in small only, but the larger sizes are apparently the same helmet. I don't think the North American version would pass FIM testing, though I have nothing to prove this.

(One notable exception to this is the Shoei X-Fourteen, or X-Spirit III in Europe, which is apparently the same helmet and somehow passed the FIM testing. It's not 22.06, so not sure what they'd have to change to get there, but it's the only helmet I know of that has ECE 22.05, Snell 2015 and FIM approval.)

Forum Sponsor