Shifter woes again

[Mad Mike]

I ordered the part, will take a couple of weeks to come in.

My JB weld and red loctite has so far secured it well, actually better then it was ever. Might have been an issue all along. Went for a longer ride yesterday and no issues. no extra play.

Thanks again everyone for the suggestions, info etc. GTAM always comes through.

I’m seeing a new thread coming in a few weeks titled “How do I remove a bolt that had Red Loctite?”

Red is used for permanent locking, or for nut/bolts over 1/2” when used on chassis parts. The bolt will likely snap when you try to remove, hopefully your bolt is threaded into a nut and not into the shifter arm.

I prefer nylon or stover bolts for nut and bolt fastening, and blue loctite for studs.

 

[sburns]

I’m seeing a new thread coming in a few weeks titled “How do I remove a bolt that had Red Loctite?”

Red is used for permanent locking, or for nut/bolts over 1/2” when used on chassis parts. The bolt will likely snap when you try to remove, hopefully your bolt is threaded into a nut and not into the shifter arm.

I prefer nylon or stover bolts for nut and bolt fastening, and blue loctite for studs.

LOL funny

I only used the Red Loctite on the shifter shaft and shift lever were the splines are. They are larger parts. The bolt I only used blue locktite.

BTW the bolt only clamps the shifter around the shaft, and the bolt rests against the shaft with no nut on the end (it does tap into the shifter). The same with the lever. It's simple design but not very effective if it loosens, which is why HD suffer from dropped shifter syndrome

 

[Mad Mike]

That’s good, red loctite on the shaft and splines won’t do much, it only binds threads under compression.

when you refit, there are a couple of option dirt bikers use (common problem for them too). 1) use blue loctite and full torque as this is a clamping application.

Make sure the splines are perfect on the shift arm and shaft. If not replace.

over time the shift arm clamping circle may stretch. If when fully clamped there is less than 3mm spacing, file the gap on the shift arm then refit.

Finally, you can drill out the threads on the shift arm and replace with a 1/4”-20 grade 8 bolt with a stover nut (or regular nut with a lock washer and blue loctite)

Im doing this on a DT250 this weekend.

 

[bitzz]

If you used longer bolts on "shifter bolts no nut on end"
then put a locknut on the back as a jam nut it would have a lot harder time loosening up again.

 

[Roadghost]

LOL funny

I only used the Red Loctite on the shifter shaft and shift lever were the splines are. They are larger parts. The bolt I only used blue locktite.

BTW the bolt only clamps the shifter around the shaft, and the bolt rests against the shaft with no nut on the end (it does tap into the shifter). The same with the lever. It's simple design but not very effective if it loosens, which is why HD suffer from dropped shifter syndrome

View attachment 50678

You should be retorquing the shifter bolt at the beginning of every season. The bolt stretches and if the shifter gets loose that's what strips the shaft. Forget about Loctite, it won't do anything. If you want a good temporary fix remove the shifter, clean all the splines, reinstall it somewhat loosely and melt some 50/50 pipe solder into it. Then torque it. I've seen this done on Hondas with some success.

 

[sburns]

You should be retorquing the shifter bolt at the beginning of every season. The bolt stretches and if the shifter gets loose that's what strips the shaft. Forget about Loctite, it won't do anything. If you want a good temporary fix remove the shifter, clean all the splines, reinstall it somewhat loosely and melt some 50/50 pipe solder into it. Then torque it. I've seen this done on Hondas with some success.

Interesting idea! Will keep it in mind for the next time, but will definately make this more of a maintenance routine as well!

 

[Wingboy]

over time the shift arm clamping circle may stretch. If when fully clamped there is less than 3mm spacing, file the gap on the shift arm then refit.

This. I've seen a lot of trials bikes with loose shifters because they get over tightened. Easy to fix. Open the gap and tighten only enough to prevent movement.

 

[Mad Mike]

You should be retorquing the shifter bolt at the beginning of every season. The bolt stretches and if the shifter gets loose that's what strips the shaft. Forget about Loctite, it won't do anything. If you want a good temporary fix remove the shifter, clean all the splines, reinstall it somewhat loosely and melt some 50/50 pipe solder into it. Then torque it. I've seen this done on Hondas with some success.

I’d still use loctite. The shifter get full vibration from the engine which can loosen bolts. You can also use 20% less torque on loctite wet threads while maintaining adequate clamping force. Less torque reduces bolt and collar stretch - a good thing.

As for retorquing, lots of HD fasteners require periodic retightening, just put shifter linkage on the list for every oil change.

 

[GreyGhost]

As for retorquing, lots of HD fasteners require periodic retightening, just put shifter linkage on the list for every oil change.

What's your plan for loctite plus retorque? Remove, clean, reapply, retorque? Check for a click and if it moves fix as above? Just retorque and call it a day?

 

[Mad Mike]

End. What's your plan for loctite plus retorque? Remove, clean, reapply, retorque? Check for a click and if it moves fix as above? Just retorque and call it a day?

With blue I probably wouldn’t retorque just inspect. If it had any play, back out and retorque. Blue comes apart easily, no heat required.

 

[Roadghost]

With blue I probably wouldn’t retorque just inspect. If it had any play, back out and retorque. Blue comes apart easily, no heat required.

I'm not a loctite fan except in the most desperate of situations. I find that it damages the threads (yes even the blue) on grade 5 bolts and especially in aluminum. I torque all the bolts on my Harley to spec, never had one come loose. On my KTM I notice they use a rubberized thread sealer in many places and loctite in others. I use the rubberized sealer instead of loctite. Loctite is good for critical areas, like the inside of an engine, but I just don't like throwing it on every part that might come loose.

 

[GreyGhost]

I'm not a loctite fan except in the most desperate of situations. I find that it damages the threads (yes even the blue) on grade 5 bolts and especially in aluminum. I torque all the bolts on my Harley to spec, never had one come loose. On my KTM I notice they use a rubberized thread sealer in many places and loctite in others. I use the rubberized sealer instead of loctite. Loctite is good for critical areas, like the inside of an engine, but I just don't like throwing it on every part that might come loose.

Damages the threads? I normally use a small amount of light-blue (242) and have never seen thread damage from it.

 

[Roadghost]

Damages the threads? I normally use a small amount of light-blue (242) and have never seen thread damage from it.

Well, I would expect a few guys to come to loctite's defence, but this is my preference, it doesn't have to be anyone else's.

 

[GreyGhost]

Well, I would expect a few guys to come to loctite's defence, but this is my preference, it doesn't have to be anyone else's.

That's fair enough. I've just never seen plastic damage metal (other than by being stupid and trying to use muscle instead of heat with red or even dark blue).

 

[Mad Mike]

I'm not a loctite fan except in the most desperate of situations. I find that it damages the threads (yes even the blue) on grade 5 bolts and especially in aluminum. I torque all the bolts on my Harley to spec, never had one come loose. On my KTM I notice they use a rubberized thread sealer in many places and loctite in others. I use the rubberized sealer instead of loctite. Loctite is good for critical areas, like the inside of an engine, but I just don't like throwing it on every part that might come loose.

If you are damaging threads when using blue loctite you are either using too much loctite or overtorquing bolts, probably both - nothing else.

if you schmere anything that lubricates threads (loctite, oil, WD, grease or anti seize) you reduce torque by 30-50%, nominally 45% from the manual specs.

Specs in service manuals are for dry & clean installations.

if you do use loctite, all that is required is a dot, 5 threads from the end of the bolt. If you want to torque to spec, treat the bolt 12 hrs before installing, otherwise get your calculator out.

 

[Mad Mike]

Well, I would expect a few guys to come to loctite's defence, but this is my preference, it doesn't have to be anyone else's.

There’s nothing wrong with your approach, for external fasteners thread lock is simply an aid to bolts shaking loose - reduces maintenance fir those who learn to use it correctly.

 

[Freddy F]

If you are damaging threads when using blue loctite you are either using too much loctite or overtorquing bolts, probably both - nothing else.

if you schmere anything that lubricates threads (loctite, oil, WD, grease or anti seize) you reduce torque by 30-50%, nominally 45% from the manual specs.

Specs in service manuals are for dry & clean installations.

if you do use loctite, all that is required is a dot, 5 threads from the end of the bolt. If you want to torque to spec, treat the bolt 12 hrs before installing, otherwise get your calculator out.

OK now I know that you pretty much know your sh-t...and using the word "schmere" adds a lot of weight (but its spelled shmear)
Over my entire adult life, I have worked as a technician or technologist in various environments (aircraft, military systems, medical and lab equipment) and I know when someone knows their scheisse.

 

[Mad Mike]

OK now I know that you pretty much know your sh-t...and using the word "schmere" adds a lot of weight (but its spelled shmear)
Over my entire adult life, I have worked as a technician or technologist in various environments (aircraft, military systems, medical and lab equipment) and I know when someone knows their scheisse.

Scheiße. Schmere & Shmere are both incorrect spellings.

Turns out the correct spelling is schmear -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schmear.

 

[Chris-CJ]

Don't mean to go off topic ......
Agree to what MM has said concerning torque values, lubricating of fasteners and loctite.
Does anybody here use anti-seize?
(The use of anti-seize was defacto procedure when we re-assembled the combustion chambers of gas turbines)

 

[GreyGhost]

Don't mean to go off topic ......
Agree to what MM has said concerning torque values, lubricating of fasteners and loctite.
Does anybody here use anti-seize?
(The use of anti-seize was defacto procedure when we re-assembled the combustion chambers of gas turbines)

Sometimes lug nuts get anti-seize. Often not as I'd rather deal with stuck lug nuts than anti seize bleeping everywhere. Bicycles get more antiseize for me. Dissimilar metals and light components do not make a good match.