See if you can balance the city budget.

[corpse]

Forum Sponsor

The question is what are YOU going to do about it?

Can I just stop giving them $6500/year? When they come to ask for payment, just answer the door with a shotgun in hand while wearing some cut offs and a mustard stained wife beater. Then yell at them "get off ma damn porch before I make yer face look like swiss cheese!", also maybe decorate my lawn with old rusted trucks.

 

[RockerGuy]

This place is taxed to death...

 

[Motorcycle Mike]

I didn't really want to jump into this conversation, but this does seem to be a common misconception with income taxes. I can't count how many times I have heard nonsense from people like "If I work that OT (or get a raise, or whatever) it will bump me into the next tax bracket and I'll actually make less!"

I found this chart: http://www.taxtips.ca/taxrates/on.htm
Which indicates that for the 2015 tax rates, for income over $150,000 up to $220,000 the tax rate is 47.97%... so 48%.... but that is only for that portion over $150k... so if you make $160k, only $10000 of that is taxed at 48%, not your entire income.

If you make $160000, your total income tax payable would be $52970 according to www.taxtips.ca/calculators/basic/basic-tax-calculator.htm so roughly 33%

Not that 33% income tax isn't high, but it is not 48%.

Okay... so take that $160000, subtract $52970 and you have $107030 to spend. Subtract $7030 for property tax, and then lets say you spend the entire rest on HST taxable items (unrealistic, but trying to guess fuel expenditure minus food expenditure, etc, is just a guessing game)... that would be $88495 spend on price tag items and another $11505 in HST.

So... in total, this fictitious fella who made $160000 spent a total of $52970 + $7030 +$ 11505 = $71505 in taxes, or out of $160000, 44.69% of his income in taxes. Still high... but nowhere near 70%.

I also don't think things like taxes the company you bought from paid count... in general they charge a market rate, and the market rate is determined from supply and demand, not the amount they paid in taxes. They might have more room to compete, but I don't think you are automatically going to see lower prices if a given company suddenly pays 5% less in tax... they will charge what people are willing to pay.

Also mandatory expenses like third-party insurance and licensing are not taxes on you, they are a cost of doing business to your business, or a cost of your lifestyle.

Anyway... I never, ever thought I would be one arguing against the taxes side... I very much agree we are taxed to much and my personal opinion is that we have more services than we need or can afford. I, for one, am very cheap and would love to live in an area with minimal services... I just feel a need to argue against mis-information every once in awhile.

 

[corpse]

I for one would get the hell out of Toronto as fast as possible and move north where everything is better in my opinion, but all the work is here and I hate long commutes. So Im stuck paying retarded amounts of property taxes just to save on time, but I often wonder if my lifestyle would be the same if I worked less but had fewer expenses.

 

[fastar1]

Your tax bill would be the same on a $366000 property in Barrie as a half million dollar property in Toronto. The Toronto property would be smaller, but you might not need a garage.

 

[nobbie48]

Rob Ford was 100% right about efficiencies. Too bad it was all talk, he never did anything about it.

Ford did a couple of good things but his personal issues overshadowed them. His biggest problem was taking on the left wingers and over privileged civil servants at the same time.

Some comments in this thread are akin to trying to make a Harley cruiser into a competitive racer by tweaking the V twin engine. You have to scrap the whole bike. Add to that the problem of not having total control over the situation. Washington, Ottawa and Queen's Park call too many of the shots.

Apparently Tory is listening to the union about cost savings to prevent more privatization in garbage collection. Why didn't they come up with efficiencies before their jobs were threatened?

There are city departments with morale issues that result in millions of dollars in lost productivity. All because of stooges promoted to positions beyond their competency level.

The biggest problem is that the situation is so screwed up that competent people don't want to get involved as they are doomed to failure. Would you want to be promoted to captain of the Costa Concordia just as it hit the rocks?

 

[murf]

I for one would get the hell out of Toronto as fast as possible and move north where everything is better in my opinion, but all the work is here and I hate long commutes. So Im stuck paying retarded amounts of property taxes just to save on time, but I often wonder if my lifestyle would be the same if I worked less but had fewer expenses.

You do realize toronto property tax rates are substantially lower than surrounding areas......almost half in some cases!?

 

[mxs]

I didn't really want to jump into this conversation, but this does seem to be a common misconception with income taxes. I can't count how many times I have heard nonsense from people like "If I work that OT (or get a raise, or whatever) it will bump me into the next tax bracket and I'll actually make less!"

I found this chart: http://www.taxtips.ca/taxrates/on.htm
Which indicates that for the 2015 tax rates, for income over $150,000 up to $220,000 the tax rate is 47.97%... so 48%.... but that is only for that portion over $150k... so if you make $160k, only $10000 of that is taxed at 48%, not your entire income.

If you make $160000, your total income tax payable would be $52970 according to www.taxtips.ca/calculators/basic/basic-tax-calculator.htm so roughly 33%

Not that 33% income tax isn't high, but it is not 48%.

Correct ..... It's amazing how many people earning a decent dollar have no idea how the income tax works in Canada. Yet, we all seem to know one thing for sure ... it's too high. and it sounds like a sensible opinion when someone adds I pay 48% income tax .... yet often what they are talking about is the top bracket rate which is a completely different number than a % figure of tax paid calculated from your total income.

It's your money, why to believe what some accountant says? ...

Anyway, the government(s) collect enough to make things happen, that's for sure.

 

[LiNK666]

So true, even people working in banks don't understand taxes and think if I work too much I'll pay too much tax.

I didn't really want to jump into this conversation, but this does seem to be a common misconception with income taxes. I can't count how many times I have heard nonsense from people like "If I work that OT (or get a raise, or whatever) it will bump me into the next tax bracket and I'll actually make less!"

I found this chart: http://www.taxtips.ca/taxrates/on.htm
Which indicates that for the 2015 tax rates, for income over $150,000 up to $220,000 the tax rate is 47.97%... so 48%.... but that is only for that portion over $150k... so if you make $160k, only $10000 of that is taxed at 48%, not your entire income.

If you make $160000, your total income tax payable would be $52970 according to www.taxtips.ca/calculators/basic/basic-tax-calculator.htm so roughly 33%

Not that 33% income tax isn't high, but it is not 48%.

Okay... so take that $160000, subtract $52970 and you have $107030 to spend. Subtract $7030 for property tax, and then lets say you spend the entire rest on HST taxable items (unrealistic, but trying to guess fuel expenditure minus food expenditure, etc, is just a guessing game)... that would be $88495 spend on price tag items and another $11505 in HST.

So... in total, this fictitious fella who made $160000 spent a total of $52970 + $7030 +$ 11505 = $71505 in taxes, or out of $160000, 44.69% of his income in taxes. Still high... but nowhere near 70%.

I also don't think things like taxes the company you bought from paid count... in general they charge a market rate, and the market rate is determined from supply and demand, not the amount they paid in taxes. They might have more room to compete, but I don't think you are automatically going to see lower prices if a given company suddenly pays 5% less in tax... they will charge what people are willing to pay.

Also mandatory expenses like third-party insurance and licensing are not taxes on you, they are a cost of doing business to your business, or a cost of your lifestyle.

Anyway... I never, ever thought I would be one arguing against the taxes side... I very much agree we are taxed to much and my personal opinion is that we have more services than we need or can afford. I, for one, am very cheap and would love to live in an area with minimal services... I just feel a need to argue against mis-information every once in awhile.

 

[MarcosSantiago]

So far, we have the following...

** Nobody likes paying taxes.
** People would consider living in a city with no zoo, and no libraries, as long as the taxes stay down. I wonder, what about a city with no parks?

So it is back to reducing the budget of someone, and as I said, the police budget of about $1 billion is the topic that cannot be avoided.

Do we need to spend so much in police?

Take a look at this - and I mean, try to read the whole paper:

Police-reported crime statistics in Canada, 2013
http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85-002-x/2014001/article/14040-eng.htm?fpv=2693

I know this is a very complex issue, but if the crime keeps going down for the last 10 years (table 1), do we keep spending so much in police year after year, forever?

 

[nobbie48]

I know this is a very complex issue, but if the crime keeps going down for the last 10 years (table 1), do we keep spending so much in police year after year, forever?

Maybe that's why crime rates are declining????

Seriously though, cyber and white collar crime concerns me and I'm for more police action in that regards. Because it isn't a mugging a lot of people don't let it sink in until they find out their house has a new mortgage and they didn't sign up for it.

 

[mxs]

So far, we have the following...

** Nobody likes paying taxes.

Sure. But some of us are OK to pay some to get something back.

** People would consider living in a city with no zoo, and no libraries, as long as the taxes stay down. I wonder, what about a city with no parks?

Not me ... you could as well live on Mars.

Do we need to spend so much in police?

Absolutely NOT. But as long as you have a union whose best interest is to keep as many officers on duty as possible with as high salary as possible, it will not go anywhere (the union machine is a well oiled lobby ... as good as many other ones out there, who keep leading to higher taxes as well). Will someone have a political will to change that? I doubt it.

 

[backmarkerducati]

I did some quick calculations, if we cut the police budget by $50M we will just about be inline with other Canadian cities for police spending per capita, so this seems reasonable to me. If we compare to many US cities we would need to increase it about 50% to spend the same per capita!

Comparing crime rates there is little correlation between higher spending and actual crime rates, even ignoring the US stats.

 

[fastar1]

I did some quick calculations, if we cut the police budget by $50M we will just about be inline with other Canadian cities for police spending per capita, so this seems reasonable to me. If we compare to many US cities we would need to increase it about 50% to spend the same per capita!

Comparing crime rates there is little correlation between higher spending and actual crime rates, even ignoring the US stats.

Unfortunately, that's all much too sensible for the average voter. Try and tell citizens you want to cut the police budget, then watch the lynch mob build before your eyes. This will happen.

 

[mxs]

I did some quick calculations, if we cut the police budget by $50M we will just about be inline with other Canadian cities for police spending per capita, so this seems reasonable to me. If we compare to many US cities we would need to increase it about 50% to spend the same per capita!

Comparing crime rates there is little correlation between higher spending and actual crime rates, even ignoring the US stats.

I am not sure comparisons per capita vs. other cities is useful .... Toronto Police budget was around 960mil in 2014 ... so you essentially saying that cutting it by 5% would make it right.

If I was a Toronto tax payer, I would love to know what portion of the 960mil is represented by non-policing activities (paying officers to monitor an intersection for a day, because a small construction is going on, sport venues, events ...) related to real policing ... I'd also love to know how much revenue does Toronto Police generate.

The below is certainly out of whack, hard to dispute regardless what you think of policing in general ....

 

[TwistedKestrel]

Something that occurred to me while thinking about TPS - does the city collect a percentage of fees for paid duty officers? Or does that go entirely to the officers themselves?

 

[Red_Liner740]

Mike, no- one here is saying that they pay 70% income tax. They are saying that after ALL the taxes we are closer to 70%.

Sure you "only" paid 33% income tac but dont forget the 13% that you will also give on majority of things you spend $$ on. Then add property tax, cpp, ei, and how much your employer gets taxed through ei, wsib, mandatory insurance, permits, etc to be able to give you that paycheque abd youll see that overall 70% of your income ends up in one layer of government or another.

 

[inreb]

Out of every $ that it costs your employer to have you and that you presumably have to give equal value in service for, compared to how much of that $ you put in your pocket after everything is deducted in addition to all consumer taxes, property taxes, fees, electricity debt retirement charges etc. and all other artificially inflated charges like mandatory insurance, monopoly booze etc. I bet you'd be lucky to see 30cents.

Mike, no- one here is saying that they pay 70% income tax. They are saying that after ALL the taxes we are closer to 70%.

Sure you "only" paid 33% income tac but dont forget the 13% that you will also give on majority of things you spend $$ on. Then add property tax, cpp, ei, and how much your employer gets taxed through ei, wsib, mandatory insurance, permits, etc to be able to give you that paycheque abd youll see that overall 70% of your income ends up in one layer of government or another.

I like Red Liner version much better. This is the reality. That's what I meant to say.

 

[Baggsy]

You do realize toronto property tax rates are substantially lower than surrounding areas......almost half in some cases!?

 

[-D-]

Mike, no- one here is saying that they pay 70% income tax. They are saying that after ALL the taxes we are closer to 70%.

Sure you "only" paid 33% income tac but dont forget the 13% that you will also give on majority of things you spend $$ on. Then add property tax, cpp, ei, and how much your employer gets taxed through ei, wsib, mandatory insurance, permits, etc to be able to give you that paycheque abd youll see that overall 70% of your income ends up in one layer of government or another.

exactly
start with $1 and it's life cycle and deduct the taxes as it passes from you ending back up to the bank

Forum Sponsor