Sale price on a bill of sale

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PrivatePilot said:
You pay the tax on the wholesale value anyways if the appraised value is lower, appraisal is irrelevant. If it's higher I'm sure they'd be happy to charge you tax on that value instead however.

Appraisals only really come into play with vehicle valuations when you're trying to insure a vehicle for more than its book value.
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:confused: Last car I bought, paid $2500, book was for $6500. Was advised by the MTO agent to get an appraisal, which is what I ultimately payed taxes on... this was 8 months ago
 
clyder said:
Ok, I get that I can put a fake price in it but does anyone actually put a fake price where they had to deal strong consequences? Putting 1$ sound surreal for me. Reason I'm asking is I have to register my bike later. Wanna save money but don't wanna get hit trying doing so and eventually end up paying more.

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Nobody puts what they actually paid for it. Its a well known thing, everybody does it.

I've never been so ballsy as to put $1, but ill take a grand or so off the price. They don't know what condition its in.
 
clyder said:
Ok, I get that I can put a fake price in it but does anyone actually put a fake price where they had to deal strong consequences? Putting 1$ sound surreal for me. Reason I'm asking is I have to register my bike later. Wanna save money but don't wanna get hit trying doing so and eventually end up paying more.

Sent from my MotoG3 using Tapatalk
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1st bike I bought I said 1000 (paid 3500). 2nd bike i say 100 (paid 1900.) My KLR, I said $1, paid 2150. The only consequence you could face is paying the price on the real value you paid for the vehicle, based on what the seller might put down if they receive a notice asking how much it was sold for.

Most people, though, would just take so much off. like 1-3000 depending on how much they paid. If it comes down to it, just agree on a price with the seller to say you paid for it.
 
catzo said:
Nobody puts what they actually paid for it. Its a well known thing, everybody does it.

I've never been so ballsy as to put $1, but ill take a grand or so off the price. They don't know what condition its in.
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Wrong! I've always put the correct value paid. For a lousy couple hundred bucks, I can keep my peace of mind.

Keep on rationalizing the irrational. ;)
 
Sorry @baggsy I think that it's a cash grab. But I too, have always put the full amount. I also have a heavy conscience.

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Neil_V said:
:confused: Last car I bought, paid $2500, book was for $6500. Was advised by the MTO agent to get an appraisal, which is what I ultimately payed taxes on... this was 8 months ago
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I apparently need to eat crow on this one....but I was sure that at some point appraisals meant squat so far as the taxes went, it was basically the higher of any declared values or the wholesale. I guess it changed.

Now, that said, I've never had an appraisal done, but say you're willing to pay for one in an effort to "save" on taxes, are appraisers willing to (presumably?) fudge the crap out of their appraisals in order to achieve the end goal of saving you taxes? Looking around online (Kijiji) it seems that the appraisal providers on there hint that they'll "save you money" on taxes, so presumably they're providing appraisals at far below the wholesale values listed on a UVIP? One ad I found even advertises a 15 minute turnaround, so I'm guessing it's done via emailed photos and blammo, appraisal in hand. That, IMHO, seems like the textbook definition of a fudged appraisal.

Seems to me that a certified appraiser doing this would be risking their certification?
 
PrivatePilot said:
I apparently need to eat crow on this one....but I was sure that at some point appraisals meant squat so far as the taxes went, it was basically the higher of any declared values or the wholesale. I guess it changed.

Now, that said, I've never had an appraisal done, but say you're willing to pay for one in an effort to "save" on taxes, are appraisers willing to (presumably?) fudge the crap out of their appraisals in order to achieve the end goal of saving you taxes? Looking around online (Kijiji) it seems that the appraisal providers on there hint that they'll "save you money" on taxes, so presumably they're providing appraisals at far below the wholesale values listed on a UVIP? One ad I found even advertises a 15 minute turnaround, so I'm guessing it's done via emailed photos and blammo, appraisal in hand. That, IMHO, seems like the textbook definition of a fudged appraisal.

Seems to me that a certified appraiser doing this would be risking their certification?
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Any appraiser I know would want to see the car, that said I'm sure they're out there.. I watched someone pick up a safety in a Tim's parking lot not so long ago;)

For the example I used above, The car was very high mileage and not really worth much more than I paid for it... the book value was high because it's still a rather newish car so there really wasn't any fudge to be had.
 
Sabex said:
1st bike I bought I said 1000 (paid 3500). 2nd bike i say 100 (paid 1900.) My KLR, I said $1, paid 2150. The only consequence you could face is paying the price on the real value you paid for the vehicle, based on what the seller might put down if they receive a notice asking how much it was sold for.

Most people, though, would just take so much off. like 1-3000 depending on how much they paid. If it comes down to it, just agree on a price with the seller to say you paid for it.
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Pretty sure there is a 10k fine for making a false statement... You might want to do a search, this has been covered many times here
 
Neil_V said:
For the example I used above, The car was very high mileage and not really worth much more than I paid for it... the book value was high because it's still a rather newish car so there really wasn't any fudge to be had.
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I just bought a new (used) car myself 2 weeks ago (Hemi Magnum) and was in the *exact* same scenario. I assumed, based on the values I was seeing online for similar cars (having been looking for a while) that the book value was going to be many multiples of what I actually paid for it.

In the end, it was twice the amount I paid, but the difference didn't justify bothering to fight it much.

I nicknamed the car Humpty Dumpty, for those who get the joke. PO didn't spend much time or effort on upkeep and repairs, but it was a diamond in the rough for me and is coming back to life nicely. And it's a freakin hoot to drive.
 
Finally I went to get my plate, it was a lady with a mean serious look and asked me how much I paid for it, there's no way I could have give a too cheap price. I dropped the price my a couple of hundred and she was:"what!?" And I said the same price, next thing I see, she type something on the computer and give me the tax price, a hundred dollar more than originally expected; I think she checked the book value and taxed me accordingly

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clyder said:
Finally I went to get my plate, it was a lady with a mean serious look and asked me how much I paid for it, there's no way I could have give a too cheap price. I dropped the price my a couple of hundred and she was:"what!?" And I said the same price, next thing I see, she type something on the computer and give me the tax price, a hundred dollar more than originally expected; I think she checked the book value and taxed me accordingly

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:confused:

UVIP will show "$$$" in the wholesale value field as there is no book value on motorcycles in Ontario... you got the shaft; no lube
 
Neil_V said:
:confused:

UVIP will show "$$$" in the wholesale value field as there is no book value on motorcycles in Ontario... you got the shaft; no lube
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The one I brought she said was no good and print out a new one which I haven't looked at yet. Will check it later and will let you know

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PrivatePilot said:
Don't be crazy and you won't attract attention.

If you attract attention the ministry can and will send out a inquiry document to both parties, sometimes months later, asking you to verify the amount of the sale, so you'd best have your ducks in a row. I got this exact document once when I sold an old trailer ....
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Doesn't happen for bikes (yet).


Sabex said:
You dont need a bill of sales. You can just tell them how much you paid.

They can send an inquiry to both parties, but you're not required to actually complete them.

I tell people I buy bikes from I'm telling the MTO I paid $1. I tell the MTO I paid $1. They look at you funny but can't do anything. I don't believe its right to make people pay taxes into the government from a private sale, on an item they already got taxes on (when it was bought from the dealership.) Every time someone sells a used vehicle the government gets more money for nothing.
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Minimum they'll allow you to pay tax on is $100. I've told them $50 before on a project bike and $20 for a spare frame. I had to pay tax on $100 for each VIN/frame.


clyder said:
Ok, I get that I can put a fake price in it but does anyone actually put a fake price where they had to deal strong consequences? Putting 1$ sound surreal for me. Reason I'm asking is I have to register my bike later. Wanna save money but don't wanna get hit trying doing so and eventually end up paying more.

Sent from my MotoG3 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

There is no blue/black book value with bikes at Service Ontario so they have nothing to go by. With cars, they'll charge tax on what ever is higher, your declared purchase price or the book (generally) and if it's way off, then they'll inquire with the seller/buyer or go by an appraisal as others have said.

I may or may not have bought a bike for 7k that was probably worth closer to 9k and had $500 on the UVIP/bill of sale. No issues.
 
clyder said:
Finally I went to get my plate, it was a lady with a mean serious look and asked me how much I paid for it, there's no way I could have give a too cheap price. I dropped the price my a couple of hundred and she was:"what!?" And I said the same price, next thing I see, she type something on the computer and give me the tax price, a hundred dollar more than originally expected; I think she checked the book value and taxed me accordingly

Sent from my MotoG3 using Tapatalk
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Shaft, no lube for sure.
 
Owen said:
Doesn't happen for bikes (yet).





Minimum they'll allow you to pay tax on is $100. I've told them $50 before on a project bike and $20 for a spare frame. I had to pay tax on $100 for each VIN/frame.




There is no blue/black book value with bikes at Service Ontario so they have nothing to go by. With cars, they'll charge tax on what ever is higher, your declared purchase price or the book (generally) and if it's way off, then they'll inquire with the seller/buyer or go by an appraisal as others have said.

I may or may not have bought a bike for 7k that was probably worth closer to 9k and had $500 on the UVIP/bill of sale. No issues.
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3-4 years ago... I sold a car, valued at 15k, to someone for a large double double. Put that on the receipt. It was the truth. They guy paid tax on $1.00

Sold a 2 year old Mitsu evo with 22k kms for $2500 "not running". They called, I confirmed... no issue.
Turned out, all it needed was the battery put back in.
 
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Owen said:
Doesn't happen for bikes (yet).





Minimum they'll allow you to pay tax on is $100. I've told them $50 before on a project bike and $20 for a spare frame. I had to pay tax on $100 for each VIN/frame.




There is no blue/black book value with bikes at Service Ontario so they have nothing to go by. With cars, they'll charge tax on what ever is higher, your declared purchase price or the book (generally) and if it's way off, then they'll inquire with the seller/buyer or go by an appraisal as others have said.

I may or may not have bought a bike for 7k that was probably worth closer to 9k and had $500 on the UVIP/bill of sale. No issues.
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That might be so. I just zone out and wait until they tell me to pay, and pay. Last time I went I also got a personalized plate, so i wouldn't have noticed the cost difference.
 
Baggsy said:
Wrong! I've always put the correct value paid. For a lousy couple hundred bucks, I can keep my peace of mind.

Keep on rationalizing the irrational. ;)
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I did put the correct value paid on my first bike and my first car, but after that I realized its pointless. Only suckers put the full amount.

I don't understand why you see taking advantage of a flawed system as irrational, but I'll attempt to rationalize it again by saying that on multiple occasions I have done stuff that would put me behind bars for years over "a lousy couple hundred bucks". So when the worst penalty that I'm facing is just having to pay the amount I wouldve had to pay anyways, well thats an easy choice.

But if youre well off and you have been your entire life, I do understand why you'd value peace of mind. Its just, for me, and probably alot of people, I've done way more illegal things for alot less money and that didnt affect my conscience so why would this.
 
catzo said:
I did put the correct value paid on my first bike and my first car, but after that I realized its pointless. Only suckers put the full amount.

I don't understand why you see taking advantage of a flawed system as irrational, but I'll attempt to rationalize it again by saying that on multiple occasions I have done stuff that would put me behind bars for years over "a lousy couple hundred bucks". So when the worst penalty that I'm facing is just having to pay the amount I wouldve had to pay anyways, well thats an easy choice.

But if youre well off and you have been your entire life, I do understand why you'd value peace of mind. Its just, for me, and probably alot of people, I've done way more illegal things for alot less money and that didnt affect my conscience so why would this.
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Again, pretty sure there''s a 10k fine for providing a false statement.. make sure you keep your ducks in a row.

i.e. Agree on value with the seller.
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