Sailing Talk

[crankcall]

That’s pretty decent rates my winter is $2200 and that includes crane in/out . I pull and install mast so that saves $700. Dock is $130ft in Oakville so $3900. I’m about 8k unless we buy a sail of two , they average 3-4K . It’s not cheap but I am at the bottom of the food chain right now . At a point doing something like Charleston or KeyWest was 10-12k for a week . This is less fun , but I can afford it .


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[MaksTO]

That’s pretty decent rates my winter is $2200 and that includes crane in/out . I pull and install mast so that saves $700. Dock is $130ft in Oakville so $3900. I’m about 8k unless we buy a sail of two , they average 3-4K . It’s not cheap but I am at the bottom of the food chain right now . At a point doing something like Charleston or KeyWest was 10-12k for a week . This is less fun , but I can afford it .


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Charter cost is one of the factors that pushed me to get the boat. At about $1k a day I ballpark on the lower end to rent / charter, owning quickly started to make sense (to me). In my case where I split costs with two others, I'm at $3-5k a year depending on maintenance. So I need to go out five times a year for it to technically be worth it.

Maintaining is a never ending struggle, but I honestly am starting to like it almost as much as I do sailing (though that might change ... ask me when I get around to doing a deck repair in the next year or two...). Not only do I get to sail a boat, but I also get to learn how it works, how to fix things when they stop working, and meet a bunch of cool people along the way who are often more than happy to share advice or tips. The community of it all has a lot of value to me in and of itself. Kinda like motorcycles honestly!

 

[crankcall]

Is it possible to do the deck repair from below ? Saves hours in trying to match or fix gel coat and non skid


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[crankcall]

I like working on the boat to the point where it’s become my Saturday morning thing. Big coffee , at the harbour , play with stuff . I learned how to splice line and make halyards and sheets , including all the tech lines like spectra and dyneema and SK78 , so I’m making up lines for other racers . Beer money projects .


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[MaksTO]

Is it possible to do the deck repair from below ? Saves hours in trying to match or fix gel coat and non skid


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Maybe... I've been tearing my hair out all week reading about different ways to skin the cat. Problem is the inside is all a carpeted headliner with a foam backer. I wanna pull it all out anyway, but its translucent underneath in many sections that aren't cored so I would have to sand and paint the entire boat from the walls to the ceiling.

The soft spot also runs mostly in the V berth area, in front of a wooden wall which I believe is structural, and then also runs behind the wooden wall / bulkhead - so there would be about a 1cm space where I can't really get new glass or core in or properly removed the carpet which is squished between the wooden wall/bulkhead and ceiling.

It's going to be a big big job. Way bigger than rebuilding the engine mount that we just did this spring.

Going from inside would effectively turn into a gut reno, but going from outside will look like a patch job - and it's a shame because the exterior fiberglass of the boat looks AMAZING for something from 1984

 

[nobbie48]

Maybe... I've been tearing my hair out all week reading about different ways to skin the cat. Problem is the inside is all a carpeted headliner with a foam backer. I wanna pull it all out anyway, but its translucent underneath in many sections that aren't cored so I would have to sand and paint the entire boat from the walls to the ceiling.

The soft spot also runs mostly in the V berth area, in front of a wooden wall which I believe is structural, and then also runs behind the wooden wall / bulkhead - so there would be about a 1cm space where I can't really get new glass or core in or properly removed the carpet which is squished between the wooden wall/bulkhead and ceiling.

It's going to be a big big job. Way bigger than rebuilding the engine mount that we just did this spring.

Going from inside would effectively turn into a gut reno, but going from outside will look like a patch job - and it's a shame because the exterior fiberglass of the boat looks AMAZING for something from 1984

Fuel numbers for cruising / family sizes power boats definitely seem crazy. I think I spent $70 on gasoline for my sailboat last year and have most of it still sitting with fuel stabilizer in it Though I guess you also have a bit less to maintain on a powerboat as far as rigging goes etc. I also imagine core rot is less prevalent since you have less holes drilled in the deck?

So far I've been OK expense wise (knock on fiberglass), though I share with two other people so costs are all divided by 3, and maintenance is easier to get done when you have other people who have a financial interest in helping or stepping in if you are under the weather or just not feeling it that weekend. If I was solo I don't know how I would manage both paying for, and physically completing all of the work that needs done.

100L/hour is horrifying. I can see why the calculus on that wouldn't work out unless it was the sole source of enjoyment for someone.

I knew a guy that bought a used powerboat with a cored hull. I think he paid $30 K for it before discovering the core was shot. Paid $ 30K to have the hull rebuilt and sold the boat before anything else went wrong.

 

[nobbie48]

I like working on the boat to the point where it’s become my Saturday morning thing. Big coffee , at the harbour , play with stuff . I learned how to splice line and make halyards and sheets , including all the tech lines like spectra and dyneema and SK78 , so I’m making up lines for other racers . Beer money projects .


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I know a guy that built a 35 footer in glass. He recommends building a dinghy first. What you learn building the dinghy will more than make up on the time making the big one. You might even learn you don't want to build a 35.

 

[nobbie48]

MaksTO, What's the boat and do you know how many square feet of deck are weak? What's the core material and would you use polyester or epoxy on the repair?

Unless there is some artistic way of camouflaging outside deck work, it would likely look weird or ugly and be right in your face unless you did the whole deck.

 

[MaksTO]

I knew a guy that bought a used powerboat with a cored hull. I think he paid $30 K for it before discovering the core was shot. Paid $ 30K to have the hull rebuilt and sold the boat before anything else went wrong.

We thankfully don’t have it that bad. Our boat is also foam cored which doesn’t quite rot the same way. That said we will still address the issues in the next season or two (at least I plan to). Not sure if we will core with foam as well or just go balsa - still looking for suppliers for foam. Seems to be harder to come by than wood cores.

I’ve yet to see a 40 year old sailboat that never got water into the core. It is what it is, just a matter of doing the work.

 

[MaksTO]

MaksTO, What's the boat and do you know how many square feet of deck are weak? What's the core material and would you use polyester or epoxy on the repair?

Unless there is some artistic way of camouflaging outside deck work, it would likely look weird or ugly and be right in your face unless you did the whole deck.

Foredeck is maybe 2-3 square feet (really a rough ballpark, but that’s what It feels like with tapping/knocking), and a strip where our halyard winch and halyard cleats are which is maybe 20”x6” or so.

Core is originally foam. Not sure if I should recore with foam or wood - I hear working with balsa is easier, especially from underneath. Will probably do Epoxy - from what I’ve read gel coat can stick to it just fine. And if we do the repair inside then no gel coat - but it will entail ripping up the carpet headliner, which is honestly something I’ve wanted to do anyway. Just roll out the interior white once done. Might look like a bit of a mess for a summer but it will be steady work and should look much better when all is said and done.

If I was going to work from up top - I was looking into a company that sells non skid moulds for gel coat but apparently it’s very hard to do properly. For gel coat I would’ve gotten it color matched by Rayplex. Probably wouldn’t look perfect either way though hence leaning towards working from inside despite the million other jobs that would be added to the project as a result.

 

[nobbie48]

We thankfully don’t have it that bad. Our boat is also foam cored which doesn’t quite rot the same way. That said we will still address the issues in the next season or two (at least I plan to). Not sure if we will core with foam as well or just go balsa - still looking for suppliers for foam. Seems to be harder to come by than wood cores.

I’ve yet to see a 40 year old sailboat that never got water into the core. It is what it is, just a matter of doing the work.

I threw out a box of end grain balsa a couple of years ago because no one wanted the stuff.

40 ish years ago everyone and their brother was building a dream boat and materials weren't hard to find. I gather that amateur builders are now into WEST for custom work.

Is the mast stepped on the deck or keel structure? How strong does the deck need to be?

What is the deck anti skid pattern? Stucco or knurled?

 

[nobbie48]

Foredeck is maybe 2-3 square feet (really a rough ballpark, but that’s what It feels like with tapping/knocking), and a strip where our halyard winch and halyard cleats are which is maybe 20”x6” or so.

Core is originally foam. Not sure if I should recore with foam or wood - I hear working with balsa is easier, especially from underneath. Will probably do Epoxy - from what I’ve read gel coat can stick to it just fine. And if we do the repair inside then no gel coat - but it will entail ripping up the carpet headliner, which is honestly something I’ve wanted to do anyway. Just roll out the interior white once done. Might look like a bit of a mess for a summer but it will be steady work and should look much better when all is said and done.

If I was going to work from up top - I was looking into a company that sells non skid moulds for gel coat but apparently it’s very hard to do properly. For gel coat I would’ve gotten it color matched by Rayplex. Probably wouldn’t look perfect either way though hence leaning towards working from inside despite the million other jobs that would be added to the project as a result.

I didn't have a problem putting epoxy on polyester but a friend had it go weird trying to poly over epoxy. Test spot first.

Epoxy is a sensitizer so use gloves and a respirator, especially if working inside. Once sensitized you are allergic for life.

I vaguely recall silicone molds but not sure how they work. For rustic concrete you stomp them into the topping. I don't think that's a good idea for the deck. I envision loading the mold with gel coat and rolling it onto a wetted out deck, watching for bubbles (On a hot day, about to rain with wind blowing leaves and debris as clueless onlookers offer advice.)

 

[Mad Mike]

That’s pretty decent rates my winter is $2200 and that includes crane in/out . I pull and install mast so that saves $700. Dock is $130ft in Oakville so $3900. I’m about 8k unless we buy a sail of two , they average 3-4K . It’s not cheap but I am at the bottom of the food chain right now . At a point doing something like Charleston or KeyWest was 10-12k for a week . This is less fun , but I can afford it .


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I was in a small club near the bluffs, non profit with a modest one time initiation fee. Less than $3k including winter on the hard, crane in and out. 4 days of club service and $150/mo clubhouse spend.

 

[MaksTO]

I threw out a box of end grain balsa a couple of years ago because no one wanted the stuff.

40 ish years ago everyone and their brother was building a dream boat and materials weren't hard to find. I gather that amateur builders are now into WEST for custom work.

Is the mast stepped on the deck or keel structure? How strong does the deck need to be?

What is the deck anti skid pattern? Stucco or knurled?

Mast is Deck stepped, with a structural pole in the cabin below the mast from the ceiling to the keel.

Non skid pattern I don’t recall off the top of my head. I think it’s something like Gibco Flexmold #301 or #302?

 

[MaksTO]

I didn't have a problem putting epoxy on polyester but a friend had it go weird trying to poly over epoxy. Test spot first.

Epoxy is a sensitizer so use gloves and a respirator, especially if working inside. Once sensitized you are allergic for life.

I vaguely recall silicone molds but not sure how they work. For rustic concrete you stomp them into the topping. I don't think that's a good idea for the deck. I envision loading the mold with gel coat and rolling it onto a wetted out deck, watching for bubbles (On a hot day, about to rain with wind blowing leaves and debris as clueless onlookers offer advice.)

I’ve read that yeah. Seems Epoxy goes over Poly but not the other way around. I’ve also read that epoxy is apparently stronger but more expensive so better on smaller jobs? We used epoxy in the engine well and it seems to be working good so far!

Didn’t know that handling epoxy made you allergic to it wow! I wear gloves and a respirator (one of the 3M ones with capsules. Don’t recall which ones though. I think it is primarily for particulates but I need to check). If I do the job indoors I’d probably get a full face respirator so I don’t get the dust in my eyes too. How quickly does the allergy form? From any skin contact at all? Or from prolonged exposure?

 

[crankcall]

Previous life I was in autobody and we did flip front hoods on tractor trailers. Hundreds of sqft of fiberglass. Epoxy will stick to poly or vinyl ester . Poly or vinyl ester will not stick to epoxy without a fight so don’t try it . Poly is fine for a deck repair . Exposure to epoxy is an open ended question , you don’t know when it will happen, but it will . When you get reaction, you won’t be able to be within 20ft of anyone using it , rash , breathing difficulties and screaming headache . Use gloves , and the best respirator you can afford that meets the requirements.
The post in your boat is structural and the plywood wall ( bulkhead) is structural. You want them solid . Carpeted liners was a cheap fast way to make new builds look nice .40 yrs later they stink , often mold and hold about 20 gal of moisture all summer . Horrible job but I’d rip it out take a flex disc and grind off adhesive and roll nice white paint . If you try those silicone mats for non skid you better practise , they work great on your 5 or 6th try . Repair from above is hard to make look untouched , you could grind down the other non skid in the surrounding area and redo a larger spot . Foam core can be bought from Canada composites in Mississauga. Balsa is easy to work with , and so is the foam , same process . The balsa gets wet and just rots in place , the foam is a grid cut so it flexs and channels the water many feet from where the ingress may have incurred. When your boat was built they used butyl tape under fittings like toe rails and things that move and mostly 15yr life caulking on everything else , which is now 40yrs old . It’s a labour of love , but remember the 5k boat you spent 10k restoring is a 5k boat . I’ve been doing this a long time .


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[nobbie48]

Previous life I was in autobody and we did flip front hoods on tractor trailers. Hundreds of sqft of fiberglass. Epoxy will stick to poly or vinyl ester . Poly or vinyl ester will not stick to epoxy without a fight so don’t try it . Poly is fine for a deck repair . Exposure to epoxy is an open ended question , you don’t know when it will happen, but it will . When you get reaction, you won’t be able to be within 20ft of anyone using it , rash , breathing difficulties and screaming headache . Use gloves , and the best respirator you can afford that meets the requirements.
The post in your boat is structural and the plywood wall ( bulkhead) is structural. You want them solid . Carpeted liners was a cheap fast way to make new builds look nice .40 yrs later they stink , often mold and hold about 20 gal of moisture all summer . Horrible job but I’d rip it out take a flex disc and grind off adhesive and roll nice white paint . If you try those silicone mats for non skid you better practise , they work great on your 5 or 6th try . Repair from above is hard to make look untouched , you could grind down the other non skid in the surrounding area and redo a larger spot . Foam core can be bought from Canada composites in Mississauga. Balsa is easy to work with , and so is the foam , same process . The balsa gets wet and just rots in place , the foam is a grid cut so it flexs and channels the water many feet from where the ingress may have incurred. When your boat was built they used butyl tape under fittings like toe rails and things that move and mostly 15yr life caulking on everything else , which is now 40yrs old . It’s a labour of love , but remember the 5k boat you spent 10k restoring is a 5k boat . I’ve been doing this a long time .


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Re the restoration cost. If you buy a $5K boat and spend $10K restoring it Making it into a $6K boat, you are out of pocket $9K. If it is the boat of your dreams and it keeps you happy for the rest of your life you have done well.

If however you get twofootitis and your next mistress of the seas becomes available for $9K more than you can raise, you don't get to caress her hull.

Providing you derive satisfaction from the efforts and learn things, meet people etc the rewards are the subtle pleasures of life.

There are many beautiful objects in the world that bring people happiness by their presence, in spite of the restoration and care being not being financially viable.

I had about $2,000 in this plus 500 hours labour and sold it to a good home for $2500. Flipping burgers would have been more profitable The therapy value of stripping old varnish, fitting a new transom,flattening the hogged keel, steam bending new spray rails, gunwales, coaming etc might be questionable.

Then a little girl walking by says "Wow, nice boat" and it was worth it




Re the epoxy reaction, it depends on how the individual's personal body chemistry reacts with the specific epoxy and it's like Russian roulette. How many spins of the cylinder do you want to chance?

I knew a dentist that developed the sensitivity making a home built aircraft. If his skin went scabby he was out of work until he healed.

 

[crankcall]

Those wooden boats have a lovely ride and need to be experienced. I’d love to have space for one ( indoors) . So pretty .


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[mimico_polak]

I’d be lying if a small part of me wasn’t considering buying this thing…so glad I don’t have spare money…

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[MaksTO]

Previous life I was in autobody and we did flip front hoods on tractor trailers. Hundreds of sqft of fiberglass. Epoxy will stick to poly or vinyl ester . Poly or vinyl ester will not stick to epoxy without a fight so don’t try it . Poly is fine for a deck repair . Exposure to epoxy is an open ended question , you don’t know when it will happen, but it will . When you get reaction, you won’t be able to be within 20ft of anyone using it , rash , breathing difficulties and screaming headache . Use gloves , and the best respirator you can afford that meets the requirements.
The post in your boat is structural and the plywood wall ( bulkhead) is structural. You want them solid . Carpeted liners was a cheap fast way to make new builds look nice .40 yrs later they stink , often mold and hold about 20 gal of moisture all summer . Horrible job but I’d rip it out take a flex disc and grind off adhesive and roll nice white paint . If you try those silicone mats for non skid you better practise , they work great on your 5 or 6th try . Repair from above is hard to make look untouched , you could grind down the other non skid in the surrounding area and redo a larger spot . Foam core can be bought from Canada composites in Mississauga. Balsa is easy to work with , and so is the foam , same process . The balsa gets wet and just rots in place , the foam is a grid cut so it flexs and channels the water many feet from where the ingress may have incurred. When your boat was built they used butyl tape under fittings like toe rails and things that move and mostly 15yr life caulking on everything else , which is now 40yrs old . It’s a labour of love , but remember the 5k boat you spent 10k restoring is a 5k boat . I’ve been doing this a long time .


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Wow that’s very informative, thanks!

Will definitely be full PPE in that case. Only have a mouth/nose respirator but may buy a full face if I end up working from inside to keep my eyes safer too.

By the sounds of it foam is almost worse than balsa - if it channels water into many different places I guess foam spreads much faster right.. My rot is most definitely from a turning block which I did Reseal two seasons ago. The plan will eventually be to overfill and fill with resin and then drill into that to prevent leaks forever, but don’t know if there’s much point in doing that until the repair is done.