Sailing Talk

[Mad Mike]

An acquaintance races in Lake Ontario and northeast US. He figures low six figures to support his addiction.

Boating is just plain expensive. Gear, dock & storage space, repairs, fuel, entertaining .... all expensive.

For the first time in my life am almost all out -- all I have left is my 10' 8HP zodiac tender and a 16' 20hp aluminum fishing boat I keep up north.

After near zero use in the pandemic and $2+/l fuel prices, I let my cruiser go. I cleaned the tank before selling her, I dropped a stack to fill the tank - that goes about 150miles. At 100l/hr burn, a weekend trip from Toronto to Kingston and back costs more than flying to NYC for dinner and a movie.

I still have the bug but I'm scaling back. I have a low-hour Yanmar/Vetus 22 a friend gave me, thinking about building a small BoJest by GlenL

 

[MaksTO]

Boating is just plain expensive. Gear, dock & storage space, repairs, fuel, entertaining .... all expensive.

For the first time in my life am almost all out -- all I have left is my 10' 8HP zodiac tender and a 16' 20hp aluminum fishing boat I keep up north.

After near zero use in the pandemic and $2+/l fuel prices, I let my cruiser go. I cleaned the tank before selling her, I dropped a stack to fill the tank - that goes about 150miles. At 100l/hr burn, a weekend trip from Toronto to Kingston and back costs more than flying to NYC for dinner and a movie.

I still have the bug but I'm scaling back. I have a low-hour Yanmar/Vetus 22 a friend gave me, thinking about building a small BoJest by GlenL

Fuel numbers for cruising / family sizes power boats definitely seem crazy. I think I spent $70 on gasoline for my sailboat last year and have most of it still sitting with fuel stabilizer in it Though I guess you also have a bit less to maintain on a powerboat as far as rigging goes etc. I also imagine core rot is less prevalent since you have less holes drilled in the deck?

So far I've been OK expense wise (knock on fiberglass), though I share with two other people so costs are all divided by 3, and maintenance is easier to get done when you have other people who have a financial interest in helping or stepping in if you are under the weather or just not feeling it that weekend. If I was solo I don't know how I would manage both paying for, and physically completing all of the work that needs done.

100L/hour is horrifying. I can see why the calculus on that wouldn't work out unless it was the sole source of enjoyment for someone.

 

[Mad Mike]

Fuel numbers for cruising / family sizes power boats definitely seem crazy. I think I spent $70 on gasoline for my sailboat last year and have most of it still sitting with fuel stabilizer in it Though I guess you also have a bit less to maintain on a powerboat as far as rigging goes etc. I also imagine core rot is less prevalent since you have less holes drilled in the deck?

So far I've been OK expense wise (knock on fiberglass), though I share with two other people so costs are all divided by 3, and maintenance is easier to get done when you have other people who have a financial interest in helping or stepping in if you are under the weather or just not feeling it that weekend. If I was solo I don't know how I would manage both paying for, and physically completing all of the work that needs done.

100L/hour is horrifying. I can see why the calculus on that wouldn't work out unless it was the sole source of enjoyment for someone.

Planing boats need big power, but they also go fast. My last boat was all aluminum, lighter and stronger than glass, but at 12’ wide x 34 long I needed 720hp to reach a cruising speed was of 35 mph.

 

[crankcall]

If we ever go powerboat it will be diesel or outboard . I will never own an inboard gas boat . Pals chriscraft 34 / twin 350s is 24 gallons an hour if you hit it hard. At this years price that’s $300 an hour if your blasting . I’m not able to fund that .

New boat in our harbour is a New England cat boat , single sail and about 20ft , all wood built in mid 50s . It’s a 4kts turd , but a very cool turd .
Last nights race was 18 to 26kts of wind , used the #2 headsail and single reef . Crew wanted the spinnaker up for downwinds , it’s faster but what a mess when it starts to windshield wiper roll going downwind . Fun for them since it’s not their money ….


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[GreyGhost]

If we ever go powerboat it will be diesel or outboard . I will never own an inboard gas boat . Pals chriscraft 34 / twin 350s is 24 gallons an hour if you hit it hard. At this years price that’s $300 an hour if your blasting . I’m not able to fund that .

A friend that has powerboats sold a boat with twin diesels below the cabin floor (~45'). The summer after an injector needed replacing and I was told that required splitting the hull to get space to get the injector out. Pushing mid five-figures. Ouch. His next boat had pods, those are scary expensive if something goes wrong. Currently has a 28' Chapparal that will happily do over 70 km/h if you don't care about your gas bill (about 40 gph at that speed). Imo, the current boat is an awkward size. I'd rather have a small fun boat or a boat that is more spacious to stay on.

I can't deal with the ugliness of cruisers with outboards. Putting them in a doghouse helps but still looks weird. Most large (for ontario) powerboats are already much uglier than sailboats imo and outboards make them 10x worse.

 

[Mad Mike]

If we ever go powerboat it will be diesel or outboard . I will never own an inboard gas boat . Pals chriscraft 34 / twin 350s is 24 gallons an hour if you hit it hard. At this years price that’s $300 an hour if your blasting . I’m not able to fund that .

That's not bad for a glass pig.

My Marinette was all aluminum, about 25% lighter than a Chris or Trojan of the same vintage and size. I could do much better at 15mph, somewhere around 12GPH where the glass boats were around 20. At the Trojan/Chris top speed of 25MPH I'd use 24, they're at or above 30. I'd hit 30gph at my top cruising speed of 37mph.

The shallower lighter aluminum hulls of a Marinette served up 30% better economy and the 50% increase in speed -- traded of some rough weather stability but at today's fuel prices it's worth it. A 60 mile round trip Toronto to Rochester @25mph guzzles 72 gallons in a Chriss 32, 48 in Mariner.

The upside? It helped make summers longer and warmer.

 

[nobbie48]

A friend that has powerboats sold a boat with twin diesels below the cabin floor (~45'). The summer after an injector needed replacing and I was told that required splitting the hull to get space to get the injector out. Pushing mid five-figures. Ouch. His next boat had pods, those are scary expensive if something goes wrong. Currently has a 28' Chapparal that will happily do over 70 km/h if you don't care about your gas bill (about 40 gph at that speed). Imo, the current boat is an awkward size. I'd rather have a small fun boat or a boat that is more spacious to stay on.

I can't deal with the ugliness of cruisers with outboards. Putting them in a doghouse helps but still looks weird. Most large (for ontario) powerboats are already much uglier than sailboats imo and outboards make them 10x worse.

We were hull kicking at a Doral showroom and older Dorals had a reputation for leaky gas tanks in their aft cabin models. I threw that at the salesman and he said it had been discussed and they would probably probably cut the bottom out of the boat and reassemble.

The way they put boats together makes it almost impossible to R&R major components.

Our boat at the time was a 26 foot Chris Craft express. It was easy to get at everything including the 5.0 liter I/O

However the hull design was based on a straight inboard and associated forward weight so it was stern heavy with the I/O.

Since we enjoyed canals we rarely ever used much of the 230 HP. Ignoring looks and V-8 ego issues a 60 HP high thrust outboard would make the boat sit better on the water and give more storage space. It's hard to gauge fuel economy.

Economically it would be hard to justify the conversion.

A friend went from a 20 foot Sea Ray I/O to a 19 foot outboard and maintenance dropped 60%.

 

[MaksTO]

Anyone have recommendations for house battery chargers? I just got an AGM (Motomaster Nautilus) and realizing my charger may not be adequate (one of those Noco 2A Genius chargers).

I don’t have a bank, just a single battery so I don’t need anything too intense. Was looking at Victron but lots of bells and whistles that I don’t know are actually helpful or just more S*** to break?

 

[MaksTO]

A friend went from a 20 foot Sea Ray I/O to a 19 foot outboard and maintenance dropped 60%.

This is why I’m reluctant to own a sailboat with an inboard anytime soon. Also seems like getting in there to do an oil change or any other regular service would be a nightmare and possibly a mess. Can’t imagine what a big service would look like - yikes.

 

[GreyGhost]

This is why I’m reluctant to own a sailboat with an inboard anytime soon. Also seems like getting in there to do an oil change or any other regular service would be a nightmare and possibly a mess. Can’t imagine what a big service would look like - yikes.

Speaking of yikes, watch this at 0:34. I've never seen a boat so well designed to turn passengers into hamburger. It's a 3100hp meat grinder.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=452784520545642

Sorry for going off track. Back to blow boats. I miss mine. I may reorganize to make room at home for windsurfers which are currently at the inlaws cottage.

 

[Mad Mike]

Anyone have recommendations for house battery chargers? I just got an AGM (Motomaster Nautilus) and realizing my charger may not be adequate (one of those Noco 2A Genius chargers).

I don’t have a bank, just a single battery so I don’t need anything too intense. Was looking at Victron but lots of bells and whistles that I don’t know are actually helpful or just more S*** to break?

A 2a charger will take a while to charge. You don’t need anything special for that battery, a small universal charger of 8-10a.

U kept one like this on my boat.

Amazon.ca

 

[crankcall]

ProMariner DS-5 , it’s for a single gel or lead acid battery . Why you say? Because you’ll mount it where it gets ****** ventilation, it’s hot and damp and it’s designed for a marine environment. $169 from Binnacle delivered to your door.


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[Mad Mike]

ProMariner DS-5 , it’s for a single gel or lead acid battery . Why you say? Because you’ll mount it where it gets ****** ventilation, it’s hot and damp and it’s designed for a marine environment. $169 from Binnacle delivered to your door.


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Marine decisions can be tough. I always go for proven marine gear for critical and safety stuff.

When it comes to accessories like chargers, furniture, and inside things like chargers, heaters, galley wear etc, I’ll go utility grade to stretch the budget. For something like a charger, induction burner, diesel heater, I’d save the 70% and buy consumer grade.

 

[crankcall]

I can’t argue against that . In my current setup the boat will never be farther away than Kingston and mostly within 2hrs of a harbour or a boat supply store . Our previous projects took us to days away ( weeks actually) from any suppliers or help , so stuff had to work. Now not so much .


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[MaksTO]

ProMariner DS-5 , it’s for a single gel or lead acid battery . Why you say? Because you’ll mount it where it gets ****** ventilation, it’s hot and damp and it’s designed for a marine environment. $169 from Binnacle delivered to your door.


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Was looking at these! Price seems right, I think it will be my move. Gotta remove the ancient charger and will use the Noco 2A in the meantime, but I don’t mind just doing things right from the get go if possible.

 

[crankcall]

Probably a thousand boats ( maybe more) that Ontario with CTC car chargers in them , old technology and folks are matching them up to sensitive electronics ( fish sonar/ speed/ WX reporting ) and the batteries just don’t last . The constant trickle from a not smart charger seems to be the culprit. I’m now digging into my new wireless speed/ wind/ anemometer gizmo so that 65ft of wire I can delete. See how long this thing lasts .


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[Mad Mike]

Probably a thousand boats ( maybe more) that Ontario with CTC car chargers in them , old technology and folks are matching them up to sensitive electronics ( fish sonar/ speed/ WX reporting ) and the batteries just don’t last . The constant trickle from a not smart charger seems to be the culprit. I’m now digging into my new wireless speed/ wind/ anemometer gizmo so that 65ft of wire I can delete. See how long this thing lasts .


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Battery charging isn’t rocket science, the $20 my smart Chinese chargers work as well as my Norco.

 

[crankcall]

Rule of thumb , whether it is power or sail , average operating costs , care and feeding is 10% per yr of the boat value , value when new. So if its a 300k boat , 30K is whats probably needed to keep it in good trim. The harbours are full of horror stories where a guy gets a "deal" on a $1000.00 sail boat and finds out at season end its $2000 for winter storage and next season is 3k for the dock. And he ripped the headsail and its $1500 used for his $1000 boat .

 

[nobbie48]

Rule of thumb , whether it is power or sail , average operating costs , care and feeding is 10% per yr of the boat value , value when new. So if its a 300k boat , 30K is whats probably needed to keep it in good trim. The harbours are full of horror stories where a guy gets a "deal" on a $1000.00 sail boat and finds out at season end its $2000 for winter storage and next season is 3k for the dock. And he ripped the headsail and its $1500 used for his $1000 boat .

At XX years insurance needs a survey. Marina rules make insurance mandatory. Fix to standards or get moved to the back forty.

 

[Mad Mike]

Rule of thumb , whether it is power or sail , average operating costs , care and feeding is 10% per yr of the boat value , value when new. So if its a 300k boat , 30K is whats probably needed to keep it in good trim. The harbours are full of horror stories where a guy gets a "deal" on a $1000.00 sail boat and finds out at season end its $2000 for winter storage and next season is 3k for the dock. And he ripped the headsail and its $1500 used for his $1000 boat .

My experience is with recreational boats, mostly power. I've never applied an average to operating costs, mainly because my biggest cost has always been fuel -- that varies considerably from boat to boat and captain to captain.

Dock fees vary by location, but they are getting really pricy. Expect $125/ft at an older, remote, or a club marina, to $275/ft for a modern marina close to shorelife.

Insurance is cheap, I think I paid $250 a year for a 32' boat with a replacement limit of $35K.

Maintenance is expensive but not outrageous if you keep on top of schedules and repairs. Not doing maintenance on a boat can have killer costs. For example, a well-maintained marine gas engine can run 2000-2500 hours between overhauls. Due to less than stellar maintenance, the average gas marine engine needs a rebuild at 1200 hours. An overhaul costs $2 for a small outboard, and $10K/motor for a larger inboard. Maintaining the hull, decks and superstructure are also important - replacing core materials on poorly maintained decks and transoms can cost more than a boat is worth.

My average cost for 24-32' cruisers ran around $200/foot annually (not including fuel). That included slip and winter storage fees, insurance, regular maintenance and minor repairs done by me.