davephoto
Well-known member
I was wondering where they did this. I figured there was some sort of pseudo-highway riding on an 80 km/h stretch of pavement.
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RTI M2X Course, Test without highway portion
- Thread starter roadrash
- Start date
I was wondering where they did this. I figured there was some sort of pseudo-highway riding on an 80 km/h stretch of pavement.
Iceman
Well-known member
Even the people taking the course say that every bike there was capable of highway speeds. Therefore the loophole is being used by people who "just don't want to do the highway portion".
That's pandering to people who are either scared or not ready to ride highways.
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ricplayer
Well-known member
A copy and paste from the RTI website.
“
For M2 class riders who wish to obtain an M licence and a potential insurance discount.
“100cc-250cc” version is also available for M2 class riders who own a motorcycle/scooter between 100cc and 250cc that cannot reach highway speeds in excess of 80km/hr.”
So they have two versions of the M test. Are they only giving the 100cc-250cc version?
“
For M2 class riders who wish to obtain an M licence and a potential insurance discount.
“100cc-250cc” version is also available for M2 class riders who own a motorcycle/scooter between 100cc and 250cc that cannot reach highway speeds in excess of 80km/hr.”
So they have two versions of the M test. Are they only giving the 100cc-250cc version?
Like what?
If someone is selecting their bike to get the non-highway test, that is pandering and a loophole that should be closed. If they legitimately own and ride as their only bike one of the very few bikes over 50cc that cannot reach 100 km/h, fine take the test without highway.
I still think that should be a restriction from a full license (maybe added as a condition like glasses?) but that is a political problem not a test centre problem. Anyone that complained about this restriction was obviously trying to game the system to avoid part of the test they didnt like. If you legitimately were never going to use the highway, the restriction would mean nothing to you.
Been reading this thread with interest but don't fully understand what RTI is doing. In reading the MTO site re motorcycle licensing when you pass the Level 2 road test, you get an M(L), an M(M) or an M.
The L "condition is added to your licence if you pass the Level One or Level Two road test using a limited-speed motorcycle or moped. The L condition means you are licensed to drive either a limited-speed motorcycle or a moped only."
The M "condition is added to your licence if you pass the Level One or Level Two road test using a three-wheeled motorcycle. The M condition means you are licensed to drive a three-wheeled motorcycle only."
The description of the Level 2 road test (found here, will not copy and paste verbatim) does not give a get-out-of-jail free card to those afraid of controlled-access highway travel. Either you're riding a limited-speed motorcycle (LSM) or you're not. If you're not riding an LSM, then before "taking the Level Two test on a motorcycle that is not limited-speed, you must complete a declaration of highway driving experience form, on which you will describe your experience driving a motorcycle on highways with speed limits of 80 km/h or greater."
The checklist for the M2X lists an expressway section:
Motorcycle M2 Exit exam.pdf
The only official allowance AFAIK is if the area in which you're taking the test does not have a multi-lane, controlled-access highway with a limit of 100kph (e.g. Lindsay's DriveTest centre is many kms from the 401) ; in that case, they'd use an 80- or 90kph road.
It seems like RTI is doing something fishy: From M2 Exit exam
"Hey Lisa, Yes, RTI has a specific course and test route for people in this category. We can put someone on a 150cc scooter through their M2-exit course and test and they will have a full M license upon passing.We call this our “non-highway” course, but it’s exactly the same course as our regular M2-exit for larger displacement motorcycles, only the expressway portion has an 80km/h speed limit. Here is a link to the website: Rider Training Institute | There is a lot riding on us. Kelly should call RTI and identify wanting to take an M2-exit course on a 150cc scooter. Barb.”So there you go, they can get the full m with RTI."
So it's like they're misusing that "loop-hole" to give full M licenses people who, by rights, should only really have M(L).
I figure this can't be an actual scam so what am I missing? How are they doing this legally?
The L "condition is added to your licence if you pass the Level One or Level Two road test using a limited-speed motorcycle or moped. The L condition means you are licensed to drive either a limited-speed motorcycle or a moped only."
The M "condition is added to your licence if you pass the Level One or Level Two road test using a three-wheeled motorcycle. The M condition means you are licensed to drive a three-wheeled motorcycle only."
The description of the Level 2 road test (found here, will not copy and paste verbatim) does not give a get-out-of-jail free card to those afraid of controlled-access highway travel. Either you're riding a limited-speed motorcycle (LSM) or you're not. If you're not riding an LSM, then before "taking the Level Two test on a motorcycle that is not limited-speed, you must complete a declaration of highway driving experience form, on which you will describe your experience driving a motorcycle on highways with speed limits of 80 km/h or greater."
The checklist for the M2X lists an expressway section:
Motorcycle M2 Exit exam.pdf
The only official allowance AFAIK is if the area in which you're taking the test does not have a multi-lane, controlled-access highway with a limit of 100kph (e.g. Lindsay's DriveTest centre is many kms from the 401) ; in that case, they'd use an 80- or 90kph road.
It seems like RTI is doing something fishy: From M2 Exit exam
"Hey Lisa, Yes, RTI has a specific course and test route for people in this category. We can put someone on a 150cc scooter through their M2-exit course and test and they will have a full M license upon passing.We call this our “non-highway” course, but it’s exactly the same course as our regular M2-exit for larger displacement motorcycles, only the expressway portion has an 80km/h speed limit. Here is a link to the website: Rider Training Institute | There is a lot riding on us. Kelly should call RTI and identify wanting to take an M2-exit course on a 150cc scooter. Barb.”So there you go, they can get the full m with RTI."
So it's like they're misusing that "loop-hole" to give full M licenses people who, by rights, should only really have M(L).
I figure this can't be an actual scam so what am I missing? How are they doing this legally?
roadrash
Well-known member
Bottomline seems to be majority who take this course do have vehicles that can easily reach highway speeds. Obviously RTI is not doing its part in filtering these folks out. It's a cash grab for them and perhaps no one, who can make a difference, has caught on to it ... yet
You're not missing anything, and it's not a loophole. If the test center, and by practical connection the approved test route, is in an area where it is too far from a 400 series hwy, then an 80 or 90 kmh road will suffice (I've tested on such a route in KW). As I mentioned in a previous post, as much as we think of Toronto as the center of the universe, there are plenty of people in Ontario that would a) disagree, and b) reasonably expect to be able to get their license without having to travel to Toronto. It is not a loophole to devise a test route without a 400 series (or specifically, 100kph speed limit) expressway. Everyone in Ontario is eligible to test on either type of route, regardless of where they reside. I think people have to be honest with themselves when choosing that test if they live and ride in the GTA.
I think it becomes a loophole when people travel from their area of residence to a distant area to avoid part of the test. This is a government problem, not an RTI problem. It would be trivially easy to require you to take tests within a certain distance of your registered address (maybe 50 km for MTO office or 100 km for course providers or closest site if no testing site is within those ranges). This would fix both the incentive for test centres to make it easier to pass terrible drivers in an effort to boost volume (cough, Lindsay, cough) and ensure that the test conditions better represent the conditions where you will spend most of your time driving.
roadrash
Well-known member
How is hwy27 and rexdale a remote area ? It's surrounded by 400 series highways. That's where this course takes place as pointed out by an earlier poster who took it. This course is exploiting a loophole, believe it or not. I understand your argument about true remote areas that are nowhere near a 400 series hwy. Obviously they don't have a choice, and that's fine because people taking the test there are expected to be residents of that area.
There's far too much focus here on the 400 series highways being the standard. They are not the standard. We use them on most test routes in the GTA because that's what we're close to. What's the speed limit on the Allen Expressway? It's a limited speed hwy with a higher speed limit.
We're not testing whether people can go 100 kph, we're testing whether they can enter/exit a limited access expressway, ride along safely and do lane changes.
Before I get flamed - I completely agree that it's far better to learn, practice, and test on a 400 series-type highway. It is NOT, however, the test standard, and therefore NOT a loophole. To avoid it. We have a test route in the Rexdale area that uses 427 for one expressway section, and a 70 or 80kph stretch for the other expressway section. The other 4 routes use hwy 427 or 409 and 427. All our approved test routes in Mississauga used 403 or 410.
There are other examples of where the schools teach to a higher standard than what's required on the test. We don't explain it that way, we teach what we believe are best practices....but if somebody asks "what about on test?", we'll tell them it's not there.
We're not testing whether people can go 100 kph, we're testing whether they can enter/exit a limited access expressway, ride along safely and do lane changes.
Before I get flamed - I completely agree that it's far better to learn, practice, and test on a 400 series-type highway. It is NOT, however, the test standard, and therefore NOT a loophole. To avoid it. We have a test route in the Rexdale area that uses 427 for one expressway section, and a 70 or 80kph stretch for the other expressway section. The other 4 routes use hwy 427 or 409 and 427. All our approved test routes in Mississauga used 403 or 410.
There are other examples of where the schools teach to a higher standard than what's required on the test. We don't explain it that way, we teach what we believe are best practices....but if somebody asks "what about on test?", we'll tell them it's not there.
RTI looking for any way they can to make a $. When I was a Senior instructor in the College system of the Gearing Up (Canada Safety Council) rider training we always heard many stories of questionable practices of RTI bending rules and this seems to be yet another one.
The system exists to test at the most basic level that you are capable of riding on our roadways. And I mean BASIC! Most of us (trainers) even agree that 2 days on a parking lot is not enough and the test we gave is harder than the MTO test to get your M2. I was always very vocal to the students that passed that they are far from ready to jump out in the real world and ride. We just gave them the basics of riding and they have a long road ahead of them in learning. Just because you have a piece of paper saying M2 a motorcyclist does not make.......
I would love to see us adopt a system like in the U.K. for new riders limiting CC's for new riders. Although our insurance system does this to a degree for young riders it does not for older ones by making the cost out of reach. I saw new riders in their 40's and 50's come through telling me they had a new 900 pound Harley Electra Glide waiting for them and insurance was not much more than what I paid.
The system exists to test at the most basic level that you are capable of riding on our roadways. And I mean BASIC! Most of us (trainers) even agree that 2 days on a parking lot is not enough and the test we gave is harder than the MTO test to get your M2. I was always very vocal to the students that passed that they are far from ready to jump out in the real world and ride. We just gave them the basics of riding and they have a long road ahead of them in learning. Just because you have a piece of paper saying M2 a motorcyclist does not make.......
I would love to see us adopt a system like in the U.K. for new riders limiting CC's for new riders. Although our insurance system does this to a degree for young riders it does not for older ones by making the cost out of reach. I saw new riders in their 40's and 50's come through telling me they had a new 900 pound Harley Electra Glide waiting for them and insurance was not much more than what I paid.
ricplayer
Well-known member
When you were an instructor, would you take a student onto a highway if there bike couldn’t physically reach the speed limit let alone the true speed of traffic? I see this as a safety issue, not at bending rules to make a $.
I completely agree with you that we need to adapt a better system and Europe has a great model to follow.
The licencing and insurance practices need to be torn up and recreated.
Again, which bike over 50 cc can't go 100 km/h? Is this a theoretical argument?
roadrash
Well-known member
See posts 71 and 73.
ricplayer
Well-known member
I posted a link earlier in the thread. One I know of this one: Vespa Primavera 150 | Model Overview Canada
155cc, 98kph top speed. Sure as hell not safe on a 400 series highway unless it’s 3am. There are other smaller displacement scooters over 50cc that would probably fall in the same or lower speed category.
I’m not being contrarian here. IMO there is no dirty pool here with RTI. There are bikes that fall between the cracks of the current system.
ricplayer
Well-known member
Thanks.
roadrash
Well-known member
RTI needs to make sure that bikes don't fall through the cracks of the current system, given its their course. They themselves indicate "100-250cc bikes that cannot safely reach a speed of 100km/hr". Why are they allowing bikes that can easily attain said speed to abuse the system ? They need to enforce their own rules better.
ricplayer
Well-known member
Agree 110%
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