Road Tolls coming to Toronto

I82l8 said:
That is really what the plan is, since it's mostly 905ers that commute on the DVP and the Gardiner.
Looks like most Torontonians also see it that way -> https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...-on-how-question-is-framed-poll-suggests.html
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I stopped reading when I saw that the poll was commissioned by a transit advocacy group. You phrase the questions the way you want and ask the people you want to get the answers you want. If the poll was commissioned by the CAA, I'm sure it would say at least 70% oppose the toll.
 
fastar1 said:
I understand there's an ongoing tug of war between planners and builders when it comes to mixed use and low rise construction. My impression of the reason (would like to hear yours) isn't that nobody wants to live in those areas, but that that type of construction has lower profit margin than the highrises or acres of detached houses that builders are used to. It's really hard to imagine that almost any residential complex in Toronto wouldn't find buyers, and particularly so for one with human-scale neighbourhoods (as opposed to the acres of parks around highrises, or acres of roads around SDHs)

I think staff need to stick to their guns for the sake of the city's long-term health.
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Please remember that municipal planners don't actually create anything. At best they set a direction and make it easier for things they deem to be good planning and harder for things they think are bad. At worst, they go away, come up with a set of rules after talking only with NIMBYs who don't want any change, then refuse anything that doesn't fit their narrow definition of what is good. Think of it more as a partnership. Both sides have to get something out of it if anything is going to get done. If nothing happens, then nothing changes. Including improvements to areas that need it. And the less that gets done, the more expensive the stuff that's out there gets. So to say that staff should stick to their guns is to say that the affordability of housing and neighbourhood revitalization in this city isn't an issue. Just think what would have happened with Regent Park if higher densities and heights weren't allowed, and if public/private partnerships weren't encouraged.

Profit margin is an issue with any business. Without it, why start. If a developer can't show a reasonable profit, no lender will consider a construction loan. And if mid-rise doesn't have the cost efficiency of either high rise (where shared costs such as elevators, chillers etc can be amortized over more units) or low rise (where you're getting into cheaper OBC Part 9 construction - wood framing), you need to have a higher per square foot selling price to offset the higher construction costs. That's why you see more mid-rise getting done in the ritzy areas that can support higher sales prices.
 
Who actually lives 10 minutes from work? Other than the self employed. Even when I lived in Petanowhere NOTHING was 10 minutes away if you lived in the townships. City transportation? Ha!
Moving to the GTA back in the early 90's I realized I didn't want to work in TO and couldn't afford to live there. However I 100% chose to move here, just like I could decide to move.

Living that close to work, and transportation isn't as much of a right as some seem to think it is. I get that people get stuck in situations, but most have that same choice.

Not one problem here with toll roads however make it fair to all users (no HOV) and make it affordable. Traffic is a problem in a city bordered by a lake. Not in our lifetime will it be fixed.
 
Face said:
I stopped reading when I saw that the poll was commissioned by a transit advocacy group. You phrase the questions the way you want and ask the people you want to get the answers you want. If the poll was commissioned by the CAA, I'm sure it would say at least 70% oppose the toll.
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^ this - so much this
 
I'd be fine with this for non-residents but now I'm gonna have to pay to sit in traffic to get to my house in Toronto? Lame.
 
What's happening in downtown TO that everybody needs to be there? Whatever it is can't it happen elsewhere?
 
Whatever, I get to Toronto faster by taking local anyways.

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inreb said:
What's happening in downtown TO that everybody needs to be there? Whatever it is can't it happen elsewhere?
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Leaf's & Raptors game, bro
 
inreb said:
What's happening in downtown TO that everybody needs to be there? Whatever it is can't it happen elsewhere?
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My problem is my gf doesn't drive. We live 4 km away down one road/streetcar line from her workplace. Still takes longer for her to streetcar home than for me to drive there even though the street car has its own lane.
 
A few days after the Tory flip flop on toll roads, he's also fine with the new estimate for fixing the gardiner that added $1 billion to the price tag (about 30% increase). www.thestar.com/news/city_hall/2016...iner-repair-debate-despite-1b-cost-spike.html Hey, with toll road money rolling in soon, who cares about accountability or costs with infrastructure estimates and work. They can just add more taxes and or raise them. Sad.

Even news sources note that
It’s a safe bet to say that any toll, no matter where it is set initially, is sure to rise.
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And remember what I posted earlier here,
kwtoxman said:
New taxes have never satisfied government spending. In the end the existing taxes go up AND you end up with a new tax as well... add new tax after new tax after new tax.
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It's coming a lot quicker than most people realize.

FWIW, the City of Toronto is also recommending various other tax measures including an increase to the land transfer tax, added vehicle taxes, and added liquor and tobacco taxes. This will be in addition to the road toll tax. https://www.thestar.com/news/city_h...ng-tax-targets-for-torontos-city-manager.html
 
Face said:
I stopped reading when I saw that the poll was commissioned by a transit advocacy group. You phrase the questions the way you want and ask the people you want to get the answers you want. If the poll was commissioned by the CAA, I'm sure it would say at least 70% oppose the toll.
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Funny you say this as when I heard the question asked on the radio that was the first thing I thought, and people fall for it.

A few things really bother me that shows me how politicians think the public is stupid:
1-) How they are saying that the city manager is proposing to bring back the car registration fee, so that the Mayor can go on the radio/tv and say that he will fight not to have it reinstated.

This is just a PR Technic to soften the blow back from him supporting and pushing for road tolls, basically the equivalence of a laser light and a cat.

2) They (the politicians) have completely miss managed our money so now they are strapped for cash and we have to be the ones paying - Hate when the Mayor says "we have no choice" well no you don't, but the government did on each one of the contracts and choices they made that brought us here.

3) "The money is only going to Infrastructure" ********, it's like a crack head saying that the money you are giving them is only going for food.

4) No ***** given about traffic management - all the roads around the DVP and Gardiner are going to be even more congested, they are already at Max for example, lake shore, Mount Pleasant etc, it is the residents of Toronto that are going to suffer from this and not just the 905ers like they are so bluntly bullshiting us.


Worse part is that people are so stupid to believe it.

Rant over.
 
Getting back to the road tolls plan, the road toll framework Tory wants so far is a flat $2 fee per use on the Gardiner and DVP. I find it strange that people here (and Tory) say the road toll tax is okay as it targets commuters from outside Toronto. No it doesn't, it targets everyone. It's a flat fee for use, period. No matter how much or little the road is used or where the use is (in Toronto). That means it's the same for someone coming from Newmarket to the city core as it is for someone using it for only two exits (such as from york mills to eglinton). Traffic patterns will change hugely in Toronto, and not in a good way. It will push people off of the gardiner and dvp and onto major arterial roads, making traffic far worse on many main streets, instead of better. An inconvenient paradox that Tory, politicians and much news are ignoring.

There is a notable disincentive for short use with flat fees. Same thing occurred with the 407 in the GTA and as I said before the best predictor of future behaviour is past behaviour. On the 407 one used to be able to use it for a few exits for the charge per km only and it was inexpensive. Then some years back the 407 added a flat fee per trip for use as well. That doubled or even tripled the cost for short use.



The better idea is cordon area tolls, not a flat fee toll. If Tory or others want to truly target commuters from outside Toronto then set up Toronto with a Cordon area like London. You want in? You pay a cordon toll to get in, and no matter what road you are on. Toronto residents who remain in the cordon area don't get any tolls.

I found it interesting that the Gardiner and DVP toll road proposal is unique to Canada as well. People aren't aware of any major roadways that go into Canadian cities that have tolls for revenue purposes.

Taken as a whole, the Tory proposed DVP and Gardiner flat fee tolls are a great way to get money easily and quickly (which politicians and governments love), are a terrible way to manage traffic and commuters, and do almost nothing to target commuters from outside Toronto over Toronto residents. Will any of this matter? I doubt it as most voters don't bother to understand the details let alone hold politicians accountable for poor decisions.
 
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Another article here. http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/side-streets-congestion-tolls-1.3868509

Tory's vision is pretty specific without much debate or push back. If one waits until a final decision is made then it will be too late to discuss or debate.

Think the gardiner/dvp toll will go free on weekends since most commuters (the target) don't commute then, like London? Bahahaha...
 
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Looks like at this point a lot of 'experts' are offering their opinions...will have to see what city council ends up deciding I guess.
The other big question will be...how are they gonna collect the toll?
 
It seems to only make sense that a fair amount of drivers will just use the side streets as well to avoid the tolls.
I can see ppl here doing it out of principal/spite to not use the tolled roads.

How are they going to do this? Clearly it has to be some electronic system...like the 407?

And the cyclists thought they have it rough now, wait for the influx of cars taking over.

Can someone rev up the cycling community to this problem headed their way, they seem to carry of clout in this city.
 
I82l8 said:
The other big question will be...how are they gonna collect the toll?
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Well it must be cheap solution (because they clearly don't want to spend more than they collect per year), we are talking about Toronto afterwards where Presto cards took almost a decade to implement (and it's still a bad implementation at best) ... so I'd expect the all fashioned throw-in toonie barrel with activated arm which will let you thru. No toonie on-hand, don't come pls. Should work well with no delays ...
 
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mxs said:
Well it must be cheap solution (because they clearly don't want to spend more than they collect per year), we are talking about Toronto afterwards where Presto cards took almost a decade to implement (and it's still a bad implementation at best) ... so I'd expect the all fashioned throw-in toonie barrel with activated arm which will let you thru. No toonie on-hand, don't come pls. Should work well with no delays ...
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It will be much worse than that. What company in Ontario is both hated AND has expertise in toll roads? Yes, 407 International Incorporated! If Toronto has so little (mismanaged) money that road tolls are required, then a public/private partnership is in the offing.

Until our elected representatives and their subordinates face the possibility of being charged with fraud for their incompetence or malfeasance, then this sort of dickery will continue to spread.
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