Fz750 Rider
Well-known member
Thanks for all the replys. But, jeez you guys are making me wary of group riders. Haven't decided on what I want to do regarding this.
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Ride organizer liability
- Thread starter Fz750 Rider
- Start date
Any time you're on a street full of other vehicles, you take same risks. A possibility of an accident, a lawsuit, etc.
Let's not demonize group riding.
What if you always ride solo, fall into a deep ditch and a hungry wolf eats you? Your last words will be "I wish I was on a group ride..."
Let's not demonize group riding.
What if you always ride solo, fall into a deep ditch and a hungry wolf eats you? Your last words will be "I wish I was on a group ride..."
You should be wary, when riding in such close proximity to others. These days there's only one person I'd feel 100% confident riding with and that's because we rode together for something like 15 years.
Anyone have any facts or legal precedent regarding this topic, or just conjecture?
I was going to post up a ride for this weekend, but now I'm torn between lawyers and wolves.
I was going to post up a ride for this weekend, but now I'm torn between lawyers and wolves.
Just think. You could be first.
Someone posted about a car crash up the Bruce Peninsula way. Two sub 16 kids drunk on booze given by or stolen from one of the kid's mothers steal a car from a garage and wreck it permanently injuring one kid. The garage took the biggest part of the blame because they left the keys in the ashtray. How good is your lawyer?
A friend was sweating bullets for a couple of years after someone left his party and had a serious crash. The driver only had a drink or two at friend's place but unknown to the host he had a few before. It took a few years and many dollars to save his home.
It all depends on how the court sees it and that depends on the skills of the lawyers.
Just post / inform people that you are going for a scenic ride of X hours leaving from TH's. You're not leading. They're following.
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Not a hooligan ride and not a "ride of the century" type ride (like the clowns in the couple of incidents late last season)? I'm not too concerned about it.
Wow, guys...live a little. Yeah, don't get involved in a hooligan ride, but ride with other known respectful riders who hold adequate skill to ride safely in a group environment, and go have some fun. If someone in the group proves themselves unable or unwilling to ride safely as part of the group, stop and politely (and privately) ask them to voluntarily tap out and head off solo - it can be done in such a fashion that they're able to make an exit with no drama and without shame if you do it discretely, vs making a scene in front of everyone else.
"Known" riders can be the challenge for some, I recognize, but again, this is where the benefits or organized riding organizations come into play. Yeah, they tend to lean towards the cruiser guys, but the one we belong to does have a segment of sportbike riders as well and we all get along just fine...and club rules and such keep the rides safe..and hey, admittedly some riders choose to ride with smaller groups of friends once they get a feel for everyone.
"Known" riders can be the challenge for some, I recognize, but again, this is where the benefits or organized riding organizations come into play. Yeah, they tend to lean towards the cruiser guys, but the one we belong to does have a segment of sportbike riders as well and we all get along just fine...and club rules and such keep the rides safe..and hey, admittedly some riders choose to ride with smaller groups of friends once they get a feel for everyone.
It would be safer to stay home and play tiddly winks but the group you describe would have minimal civil liability risks. Keep in mind that motorcycling is generally seen as one of the higher risk activities and every rider has of their own accord applied for "Club membership" by getting at least an M-1.
If a Mamma's boy crashed and mamma or sonny wanted to sue, the circumstances would have to be pretty bad for them to be successful. However the legal cost of defending the suit could be serious dough that may or may not be recoverable.
Waivers are a good start but very often don't stand up in court. If the waiver wasn't written by a very sharp lawyer then a very sharp lawyer could void it.
I was asked make a few custom electrical devices and asked my lawyer about a waiver in case a dummy hurt himself. The dollar amount couldn't justify testing by a certified agency.
I was told that the letter would cost a few hundred dollars but the research into what to cover would be in excess of ten grand.
Tickets are a more likely a problem. I don't know how one would keep a large ride together without doing rolling stops.
Do your rides do rolling stops or does everyone come to a full stop?
Each participant in our rides is of course responsible for their own adherence to the HTA, but we do have general guidelines that aim for adherence to such - I won't go into exact details, but you know what I'm getting at. We aim to be respectful and present a positive image to others both on and off our bikes - that's a big part of the clubs charter, including no drinking during a ride, etc.
Its all in the name of safety.
I do know of several instances in other chapters where members have been asked to leave rides because they chose to not follow the safety guidelines, or consumed alcohol during a ride at a lunch stop, etc, so adherence to the safety guidelines that make our groups safe and enjoyable are not just hot air.
Its all in the name of safety.
I do know of several instances in other chapters where members have been asked to leave rides because they chose to not follow the safety guidelines, or consumed alcohol during a ride at a lunch stop, etc, so adherence to the safety guidelines that make our groups safe and enjoyable are not just hot air.
Well, everything in life has inherent risks. It is all in your ability to accept and manage those risks. Leading a ride, is a risk, if the benefits outweigh the risks, then lead on. If your adverse to risk then don't lead.
For those who posted up about liability waivers, just because someone signed a waiver, means very little, it does NOT mean they still can't file suit it "may" limit the organizer liability. BUT, also do not forget, someone CAN NOT, waiver someone elses' rights. IE I sign a waiver then crash, That waiver I sgined can NOT prevent my loved ones, employer, etc from filing suit for their "losses" etc.
I am also sure that a lawyer would rip apart the "I merely posted that I am riding from point A to point B and if others follow" Etc. MOST people will talk to others who show up and a lawyer would argue that placed you as "being in charge" and by virtue as a "ride leader/organizer"
As I said it is all about YOUR risk tolerance.
For those who posted up about liability waivers, just because someone signed a waiver, means very little, it does NOT mean they still can't file suit it "may" limit the organizer liability. BUT, also do not forget, someone CAN NOT, waiver someone elses' rights. IE I sign a waiver then crash, That waiver I sgined can NOT prevent my loved ones, employer, etc from filing suit for their "losses" etc.
I am also sure that a lawyer would rip apart the "I merely posted that I am riding from point A to point B and if others follow" Etc. MOST people will talk to others who show up and a lawyer would argue that placed you as "being in charge" and by virtue as a "ride leader/organizer"
As I said it is all about YOUR risk tolerance.
Regarding the signed waiver of liability, ask someone why Bar Hodgson stopped doing track days at Mosport.
A couple of friends and I were going out for a little Saturday morning ride. One of the others made the mistake of mentioning it on a mailing list. Not an invitation, mind you, but just an aside that we were going. Thirty riders showed up, expecting to be led on a route ride. We should have just buggered off on our own, but felt bad about it. That guy I mentioned who didn't take my advice on Snake Road? Yeah, that was the other ride in which he binned it straight into the guardrail on Snake.
No, not very little. It is not bulletproof and it won't stop anyone from suing but it does help in court. A liability waiver is a very common document, used by governments and large corporations. There's a reason it exists.
Main thing though, as I stated before, is that a waiver is a deterrent for people who don't want to play by the book.
Fz750 Rider
Well-known member
I can't believe that someone would try to hold me responsible for their own actions. What about the ride leaders, do you guys feel responsible? I certainly feel responsible. But, that's jut good-heartedness. I really don't know what you're doing back there. I'm just the guy riding up front.
I think this forum has attracted the nanny type of personality for a while now, so the comments are what people "feel" and not what people know (most of them anyways).
My only issue with rides these days are the damn gopros and the liability if something goes wrong and previous shenanigans are recorded on tape with my license plate on it. In regards to Liability, I am not that concerned to be honest.
You are one of the only guys posting awesome rides, I would hate for that to stop just because of this thread. I remember as a new rider (returning new rider anyways), I used to enjoy going to rides posted on this forum, many friendships I still have were made on those rides, newer riders will not have that opportunity if everyone listens to the overly "worried" type of person that frequents this forum now.
You have posted many rides, judge by your experience and not by what people in here say, most people on the internet are full of ****, including me
My only issue with rides these days are the damn gopros and the liability if something goes wrong and previous shenanigans are recorded on tape with my license plate on it. In regards to Liability, I am not that concerned to be honest.
You are one of the only guys posting awesome rides, I would hate for that to stop just because of this thread. I remember as a new rider (returning new rider anyways), I used to enjoy going to rides posted on this forum, many friendships I still have were made on those rides, newer riders will not have that opportunity if everyone listens to the overly "worried" type of person that frequents this forum now.
You have posted many rides, judge by your experience and not by what people in here say, most people on the internet are full of ****, including me
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Odds of there being a legal issue are small, but are present. Even if a rider accepts personal liabilty, imagine if he were to die on a ride. Suddenly the family starts grubbing for money. One local group had two riders die; one when he was riding home after a group ride and one during the ride. That group survived for quite a while after those incidents, because there was an understanding of personal liability.
In the case of the group, for which I was one of the founding members, things didn't go that well. One person, who was riding well over his head while trying to keep up with the lead rider, crashed badly. When discussion started regarding the incident on our mailing list, he started essentially blaming the lead rider for his lack of self control. He started making comments about "the general and his troops", as if the lead rider had virtually ordered him to ride beyond his skill level. Nothing remotely like this ever happened and the group's motto was "ride your own ride." While this wasn't the only issue that came up with that group, it sounded the beginning of the end of an almost decade old group, with over 200 members. it also earned ddusseld the nickname "The General."
*EDIT* Please keep in mind that this was in the early '00s when you could still ride without the axe of HTA172 hanging over your head.
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I understand and nothing is ever 100% safe.
In the same token, situations like this happen at work and our regular lives every day. If someone is an idiot they can basically sue you for anything, then you have to defend yourself, most likely win but then incur in the cost including lost time, it's just the world we live in, I can't live my life thinking about all the variations where I can get in trouble due to someone's elses' stupidity.
I like to ride = risk
I like to race = risk
I like to dirt ride = risk
I like to share a ride with others = risk (this is no longer the case as I no longer feel I relate to most people around here)
Minimize the risk and continue on with what you enjoy, if leading and organizing rides is what you like then minimize the risk by:
Have a comprehensive riders meeting before the ride, explain the rules, warnings on tricky areas you might ride through, explain that anyone that stays behind can catch up at the next stop etc. Make sure to stop and warn riders before a dangerous stretch of the road, recognize the newer riders with less skill and have a chat with them about what they should or not do etc.
I feel if you do all these things, no one can reasonably convict you of any wrong doing.
Or stay home and hide from any risk.
That's how I see it anyways, I could be wrong
In the same token, situations like this happen at work and our regular lives every day. If someone is an idiot they can basically sue you for anything, then you have to defend yourself, most likely win but then incur in the cost including lost time, it's just the world we live in, I can't live my life thinking about all the variations where I can get in trouble due to someone's elses' stupidity.
I like to ride = risk
I like to race = risk
I like to dirt ride = risk
I like to share a ride with others = risk (this is no longer the case as I no longer feel I relate to most people around here)
Minimize the risk and continue on with what you enjoy, if leading and organizing rides is what you like then minimize the risk by:
Have a comprehensive riders meeting before the ride, explain the rules, warnings on tricky areas you might ride through, explain that anyone that stays behind can catch up at the next stop etc. Make sure to stop and warn riders before a dangerous stretch of the road, recognize the newer riders with less skill and have a chat with them about what they should or not do etc.
I feel if you do all these things, no one can reasonably convict you of any wrong doing.
Or stay home and hide from any risk.
That's how I see it anyways, I could be wrong
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