Ride organizer liability | GTAMotorcycle.com

Ride organizer liability

Fz750 Rider

Fz750 Rider

Well-known member
Hey guy, I lead and setup quite a few rides. I'm wondering if I am responsible for other people in the ride.

Say I setup a ride and one of the guys ends up in a crash. If they (cops) look in their phone and see that I organized the ride. Any reason that may come after me?

Not sure where to post this. Law and regulations is a good place I think.
 
I don't think legally there is a rule that police could use.

However, everyone these days is a vlogger and have videos of the rides, if the cops get a hold of any video evidence that shows you riding in any way out of the regulations, then you can be liable.

This is why I stopped organizing rides, the moment someone shows with a camera, I am out.
 
Can happen and has happened, but as far as I can tell, only in circumstances that could be considered dangerous driving. That's open to interpretation. My approach is to keep the stunters and squidiots out, keep speed reasonable, minimize overtaking cars, no wheelies.
 
Brian P said:
Can happen and has happened, but as far as I can tell, only in circumstances that could be considered dangerous driving. That's open to interpretation. My approach is to keep the stunters and squidiots out, keep speed reasonable, minimize overtaking cars, no wheelies.
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No wheelies? No fun!


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I don't think this is a criminal problem for the cops, but it could be a civil action.
The injured rider would have to prove you were somehow negligent in planning the ride or you didn't take sufficient care to ensure that a rookie rider would be OK with the route you selected.
People love to sue for any possible reason and there are plenty of lawyers to accommodate them.
Maybe get a signed release before the ride starts. No release and you are not part of the ride (on your own).
 
I don't know if it would help in court, but if I wanted to organize a ride, I would post something along the lines of "I am riding this route, starting from this location at this time it should be a good ride. Others may want to do a similar ride".

Personally I don't enjoy most group rides with random people as there always seem to be problems with people riding outside of their comfort zone. If you keep the rides to a small circle of friends you know their abilities and they are less likely to throw you under the bus if things go wrong (especially if everyone takes a turn leading a ride).
 
funny as it sounds, I've lead many rides from the back of the pack as I would provide routing. Organize the stop points and just make it to the hotel... most people ride faster than me anyway ...
 
Leading a ride from the back is a neat idea.

I am curious if anyone can post any legal precedents or facts about this topic in general. As someone who leads a bunch of rides throughout the season and has done so for about 10 years, I like to do it, because it's a good way to meet like minded riders of similar minimum skill set and approach to riding. None of my close friends whom I grew up with ride!

At the end of the day, I've always felt that it is important to include in the ride thread that it is or isn't friendly for new riders, how long the day will be, if the roads are twisty or just scenic and offer a basic outline for the day. I would hate to stop offering up group rides because of a liability issue.
 
I usually rode sweep on group rides because it was the only way to have any fun, in a group of 15+ bikes. When the group rises to 30+ there's simply no way to have fun, even riding sweep. It's a parade, not a ride.

I'm hoping that ddusseld sees this thread and chimes in. He was our usual ride leader back in the TARA days and things started to come apart when one specific member started blaming him for setting a pace that he tried to match (and failed, rather spectacularly to do so). We always stressed that the only one in control of the motorcycle was the rider, himself, and that no one should ride above their comfort level. No one would be left behind.

I led a ride of somewhere around 12 bikes on some of my favorite roads. As anyone who has ridden with me can attest I'm not fast, but I can at least pick a line. I was watching one novice rider carefully and saw that he was getting way out of shape in corners. When we got to the top Snake Road I warned him about a specific corner, by number, telling him that it was a decreasing radius and that he should go in slow and turn late. If he felt that he was going too fast he should stay off the brakes and lean more. He went in too fast, nailed the brakes, stood it up, and clipped the guard rail while trying to follow a faster rider. Did I have liability in that case, or had i sufficiently guarded myself? I had 10 witnesses to the conversation. Ultimately it wouldn't matter is someone decided to sue. I'd have to fight it. I would likely ultimately win because I was in no way negligent and did not accept any remuneration for leading the ride, but it would cost me money and time.

Oh, and on a later ride this same rider, on the same road, in a larger group, moving more slowly, put himself straight into the same guardrail and ended that ride early.
 
Another possibly dumb question:
For liability purposes, can a large enough group ride be considered a parade without a permit? And liability would therefore fall on the organizer of said 'parade'?
 
kruzuki said:
Another possibly dumb question:
For liability purposes, can a large enough group ride be considered a parade without a permit? And liability would therefore fall on the organizer of said 'parade'?
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That would typically be a bylaw issue, rather than a HTA or Criminal Code issue. If you're out in the boonies, not so much of an issue. The bigger one would be possible charges under HTA 172 (racing or performing a stunt) with respect to driving unnecessarily close, blocking traffic, etc.. That's leaving aside charges to do with speed.
 
IMO the only ways a group ride could be 100% legal is for it to be escorted by police or on a closed course.

HTA 172 is so vague that any number of charges could be laid.

Blocking in of vehicles is an HTA 172 charge so when a mass of bikes creates a rolling road block charges could be laid.

Out accelerating another vehicle is on the mentioned list. If a rider revs it up a bit to catch up with the group while another vehicle is potentially trying to get into the same space the rider could be charged.

If your bike is impounded for a week and your licence suspended THERE IS NO COMPENSATION IF YOU ARE FOUND INNOCENT. Tow and storage fees could take a grand out of your pocket and if you drive for a living kiss goodbye a weeks pay.

I can't see how a ride of more than a couple of bikes can stay together without rolling stops. So why not break it up into very small groups.

There is a bit of hypocrisy with some group riders. They want special privileges (Rolling stops for example) because they are a group ride but don't want the responsibilities that come with managing or participating in group rides.

To the original question:

I think civil action is more a risk than a ticket. The ironic part is that the safer you make the ride the more at risk you are for a lawsuit from injured parties.

If a rider posted "Tuned up the bike and going to blast from Square One to Orangeville via the forks leaving at 9:00 AM Saturday." There is no invitation or indication of leading a ride. Anyone is free to follow any vehicle on any roadway.

If the rider's post says he's leading a ride and a pre-ride safety discussion will be held a novice rider could assume that he is being babysat.

I am told by cottage owning friends that there are no more cottager's associations as associations have directors and they are financially responsible for anything that goes wrong on the lake. Slander the logging company and lose your cottage. Now they are "Friends of Lake Woohoo" and speak as individuals.

HTA charges would be the least of my worries, the cost of a few grand.

Civil charges from a court that believed you recklessly endangered little Lord Fauntleroy causing him to crash and hurt his unblemished skin would be of greater concern. I somehow think vehicle insurance avoids that part of the situation.

Morally speaking, are you your newbie brother's keeper?

In case you didn't pick up on it I don't like group rides of more than a few known friends.
 
nobbie48 said:
IMO the only ways a group ride could be 100% legal is for it to be escorted by police or on a closed course.

HTA 172 is so vague that any number of charges could be laid.

Blocking in of vehicles is an HTA 172 charge so when a mass of bikes creates a rolling road block charges could be laid.

Out accelerating another vehicle is on the mentioned list. If a rider revs it up a bit to catch up with the group while another vehicle is potentially trying to get into the same space the rider could be charged.
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Someone should tell all the countless riding groups out there that they're breaking the laws.

I think you're jumping to a lot of conclusions. Group rides are perfectly legal so long as everyone is riding by the rules of the road. 10 bikes in line is, so far as the HTA is concerned, no different than 10 cars in a line - each bike is a separate vehicle in the eyes of the HTA, which is of course, why the law DOES stipulate they can't share the same spot in a lane - IE, no bikes side by side, but proper staggered (or even single file) formation is fine.

Blocking of vehicles? Again, so long as the bikes are doing at least the speed limit there's no argument to be had there - 10 bikes riding along a highway doing the speed limit cannot be imposed upon to speed up or pull over to get out of the way of an impatient car, much less can somehow magically charged for impeding traffic while simply riding along. By that logic, my truck at work which is computer limited to 100KPH could be charged with "impeding traffic" if I was driving along on a single land 100KPH road, unable to go any faster? Yeah, not going to happen. Yes, if the group is riding *exactly* at the speed limit and there's some incredibly impatient (ie, dangerous) cagers behind, a courteous group will pull off somewhere and let them pass, but again, there's no HTA issue there.

And out accelerating another vehicle? Again, each motorcycle is treated by the HTA as a separate vehicle, so accelerating to catch up to the bike in front isn't a problem unless the person accelerating is exceeding the speed limit or rides up beside (instead of behind) the bike ahead.

Anyhow, group rides have been going on for decades and I've been part of lots of them. Nobody gets hassled unless they're doing some flagrantly wrong to attract attention to themselves. Traffic blocking at intersections for example is something that can attract unwanted attention, including making other motorists angry, but it comes down to how the group manages themselves. I went on a couple group rides in the 90's that ended up being train wrecks and I bailed out inside 30 minutes for fear of my life, but the group I ride with now is a whole different (and much more enjoyable/safer) situation.
 
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PrivatePilot said:
Someone should tell all the countless riding groups out there that they're breaking the laws.

I think you're jumping to a lot of conclusions. Group rides are perfectly legal so long as everyone is riding by the rules of the road. 10 bikes in line is, so far as the HTA is concerned, no different than 10 cars in a line - each bike is a separate vehicle in the eyes of the HTA, which is of course, why the law DOES stipulate they can't share the same spot in a lane - IE, no bikes side by side, but proper staggered (or even single file) formation is fine.

Blocking of vehicles? Again, so long as the bikes are doing at least the speed limit there's no argument to be had there - 10 bikes riding along a highway doing the speed limit cannot be imposed upon to speed up or pull over to get out of the way of an impatient car, much less can somehow magically charged for impeding traffic while simply riding along. By that logic, my truck at work which is computer limited to 100KPH could be charged with "impeding traffic" if I was driving along on a single land 100KPH road, unable to go any faster? Yeah, not going to happen. Yes, if the group is riding *exactly* at the speed limit and there's some incredibly impatient (ie, dangerous) cagers behind, a courteous group will pull off somewhere and let them pass, but again, there's no HTA issue there.

And out accelerating another vehicle? Again, each motorcycle is treated by the HTA as a separate vehicle, so accelerating to catch up to the bike in front isn't a problem unless the person accelerating is exceeding the speed limit or rides up beside (instead of behind) the bike ahead.

Anyhow, group rides have been going on for decades and I've been part of lots of them. Nobody gets hassled unless they're doing some flagrantly wrong to attract attention to themselves. Traffic blocking at intersections for example is something that can attract unwanted attention, including making other motorists angry, but it comes down to how the group manages themselves. I went on a couple group rides in the 90's that ended up being train wrecks and I bailed out inside 30 minutes for fear of my life, but the group I ride with now is a whole different (and much more enjoyable/safer) situation.
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A couple of years back an impatient driver tried to pass a ride, lost control trying to avoid an oncoming car and killed himself after taking out a bike. IIRC someone on the ride lost a leg. Right of way didn't help.

If you're first in line at a red light and hammer it on the green to make a left before the opposing traffic gets going it's HTA 172 territory.

If there are two vehicles at a red light one has to out accelerate or no one can change lanes or merge. Define out accelerate.
 
nobbie48 said:
A couple of years back an impatient driver tried to pass a ride, lost control trying to avoid an oncoming car and killed himself after taking out a bike. IIRC someone on the ride lost a leg. Right of way didn't help.
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That was a Brampton SCRC ride. I remember the incident well. The rider and passenger both lost their left legs. Terrible. And one of the specific reasons why I am wary of group rides.
 
Discussions of liability are civil in nature. Nothing to do with HTA. There may be some case law on the books, but new case law is made everyday. A signed waiver from all the ride participants should help indemnify the organizers, but won't do much if there's an incident involving other parties that choose to litigate.
 
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Organize a group ride and when one of the riders slides their bike into a bus stop full of people you will likely be getting a letter from an attorney naming you in the lawsuit. I'm game for riding with one or two other people but past that I'm out. I don't need to deal with someone else's problems.
 
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