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Mad Mike said:
Not saying it can't happen, just that it's likely that business will pull back from WFH as to improve productivity. Even our Liberal gov't is weary of WFH, they are resisting engraining it into union contracts as they saw monstrous productivity losses (all those issues with passports, immigration files, court backups, CRA tax investigations were hamstrung due to productivity losses.

Till mid-Covid, I worked for one of the largest companies in Canada (with 6000+, my campus had a fraction of the workforce). I had pretty good visibility into productivity data, before and during, the Pandemic. I don't have access to the fine details, but I interact with enough industry colleagues to have a good feel for the challenges.

Right now companies are treading carefully as employee retention is a big concern. That may not go on forever, should the economy slow down, that could change.
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You say “productivity loss” I say middle management being made to look like a spare wheel. I think my wife’s had 3-4 raises since working from home partly due to her productivity.

The cats out of the bag, the productivity loss thing is like the poisoned Halloween candy myth. Sounds feasible until you actually go looking for it.
 
jc100 said:
You say “productivity loss” I say middle management being made to look like a spare wheel. I think my wife’s had 3-4 raises since working from home partly due to her productivity.

The cats out of the bag, the productivity loss thing is like the poisoned Halloween candy myth. Sounds feasible until you actually go looking for it.
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My only point of reference is in banking, however it’s a decent study as the workforce is huge, so the law I’ve averages works better.

When you look at 6000 workers, and you see a 20% loss, that’s a good point of reference. That’s an average, so some may be more productive, and some less. But more less.

The other thing that needs to be referenced is advancement. In my old place, upward advancement averaged 24 mos. WFH extended that 2x to 48 mos. That starves big operations who use the entry level position as feedstock for the operation.
 
Mad Mike said:
My only point of reference is in banking, however it’s a decent study as the workforce is huge, so the law I’ve averages works better.

When you look at 6000 workers, and you see a 20% loss, that’s a good point of reference. That’s an average, so some may be more productive, and some less. But more less.

The other thing that needs to be referenced is advancement. In my old place, upward advancement averaged 24 mos. WFH extended that 2x to 48 mos. That starves big operations who use the entry level position as feedstock for the operation.
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Ok…now add sick days taken by workers at an office vs those working from home too. Sorry Mike, the entire landscape has been shaken up here and I don’t think it’s going away.
 
jc100 said:
Ok…now add sick days taken by workers at an office vs those working from home too. Sorry Mike, the entire landscape has been shaken up here and I don’t think it’s going away.
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Well I have stats for that. The bank I worked for averaged 5.5% vacancy (absent days) in 2019. Went to 2.5% in 2021 for WFH staff, today it’s 5.5% for WFH staff.

This is a generational challenge, most employers see millennial and Z vacancy rates at 2x of Boomer and X.
 
Mad Mike said:
Well I have stats for that. The bank I worked for averaged 5.5% vacancy (absent days) in 2019. Went to 2.5% in 2021 for WFH staff, today it’s 5.5% for WFH staff.

This is a generational challenge, most employers see millennial and Z vacancy rates at 2x of Boomer and X.
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I never understood how WFH people take a sick day. I feel guilty taking a sick day.

Hell I may be one of the few suckers that actually sits at my desk majority of the work day. Outside of a quick workout here or there.
 
mimico_polak said:
I never understood how WFH people take a sick day. I feel guilty taking a sick day.

Hell I may be one of the few suckers that actually sits at my desk majority of the work day. Outside of a quick workout here or there.
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Well i have my coworker right now who messed up his toe (broke it) and cant even put a sock on, but he's on all day working. He would not come in the office otherwise if WFH wasn't an option.

I do take sick days if, im feverish and drained and can't focus. I have coworkers that get horrible migraines where their vision gets blurry... i mean those are all valid sick day reasons in my eyes.
I'm one of the guys that will come in the office when sick and tough it out, to take the 1 days off to go ski during winter. Nobody asks questions, my work gets done on time
 
LePhillou said:
Well i have my coworker right now who messed up his toe (broke it) and cant even put a sock on, but he's on all day working. He would not come in the office otherwise if WFH wasn't an option.

I do take sick days if, im feverish and drained and can't focus. I have coworkers that get horrible migraines where their vision gets blurry... i mean those are all valid sick day reasons in my eyes.
I'm one of the guys that will come in the office when sick and tough it out, to take the 1 days off to go ski during winter. Nobody asks questions, my work gets done on time
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That's the key. I've seen people take a day off for a small headache / runny nose...as they're working from home.

Last time I took a sick day...I was in the hospital recovering from having my gallbladder removed.
 
Mad Mike said:
This is a generational challenge, most employers see millennial and Z vacancy rates at 2x of Boomer and X.
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Any time I have ever talked about work to my grandma she has always brought up her proud fact of only taking X (5-10) sick days in 35-40 years of working.
What did that get her at her retirement party over the guy that took 100? My guess is nothing. Not saying right or wrong, but yes I highly believe the number of 2x. No one cares anymore.
 
Mikedezo44 said:
Any time I have ever talked about work to my grandma she has always brought up her proud fact of only taking X (5-10) sick days in 35-40 years of working.
What did that get her at her retirement party over the guy that took 100? My guess is nothing. Not saying right or wrong, but yes I highly believe the number of 2x. No one cares anymore.
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2x is really low. I believe your grandma. To a certain extent, that was too far as people would come in sick and spread it. It's often better to lose an employee for a day than to have illness sweep through the workplace. One day every two weeks for teachers means they need to change careers to something that better fits with their delicate immune systems.

For sickness, I rarely take a sick day. Maybe one a year. I end up taking more for injuries as they can put you on your back for multiple days. When I broke my leg, I was working a few hours a day as that was all I could bear even with narcotics and working with my leg over my head was almost impossible. Slowed down progress but kept everything moving forward.
 
Over time, sick days have become an entitlement, not a benefit. If you offer a workforce 3 sick days a year, you're average will be close to 3, offer them 20 and that's gonna be your average.

How many days are enough? Who knows, probably somewhere between 3 and 6 would be my best guess.

At our shop you get as many paid as you need, but after the 3 days are used, we can ask for a sick note.
 
Mad Mike said:
Over time, sick days have become an entitlement, not a benefit. If you offer a workforce 3 sick days a year, you're average will be close to 3, offer them 20 and that's gonna be your average.

How many days are enough? Who knows, probably somewhere between 3 and 6 would be my best guess.

At our shop you get as many paid as you need, but after the 3 days are used, we can ask for a sick note.
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I agree. It needs to be reasonable. If I know what's going on, I am happy to extend courtesy. If they have the friday in the summer sickness too often, they have reached the end of their career progression.

Things got so bad at GM with employees taking fake sick days that they rebranded some to SPA days (something personal absence) which basically means you don't want to come in and you don't have to lie about being sick.
 
On sick days there is no perfect system. The least worse IMO is paying them out at the end of the year at 50% (or some other ratio), have 4 days left you get two days extra pay. Of course where this was happening in gov other people were up in arms about it...

-Give X days and payout nothing = use them or lose them, they become extra days off.
-Bank them and pay them out at retirement they can become a liability on the books, of course people are up in arms.
-Having them available but provide a incentive to not take them...
 
backmarkerducati said:
On sick days there is no perfect system. The least worse IMO is paying them out at the end of the year at 50% (or some other ratio), have 4 days left you get two days extra pay. Of course where this was happening in gov other people were up in arms about it...

-Give X days and payout nothing = use them or lose them, they become extra days off.
-Bank them and pay them out at retirement they can become a liability on the books, of course people are up in arms.
-Having them available but provide a incentive to not take them...
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10% of work days as sick days is absolutely ridiculous and sets up the system for failure. If you are off one day every two weeks, you need to change careers, wear a mask or wash your hands more. Sick days should be 2% or so with exceptions for one-off longer events like surgery or injury. If you take off one day every two weeks, you are obviously milking it.
 
My employer sucks in lots of ways, but the sick day policy is not one of them. If you're sick, you stay home. You still get paid. There's no specific number of days to track or budget, and you don't need a doctor's note.

I'm sure there's a process for managers to follow if things get excessive, but I haven't seen this policy being obviously abused in any way that matters. Frequent absences are usually just confirmation of low engagement, which shows up in lots of different ways, and which is way more important to address than forcing someone to sit in front of their computer all day and pretend to be busy.
 
Ash said:
My employer sucks in lots of ways, but the sick day policy is not one of them. If you're sick, you stay home. You still get paid. There's no specific number of days to track or budget, and you don't need a doctor's note.

I'm sure there's a process for managers to follow if things get excessive, but I haven't seen this policy being obviously abused in any way that matters. Frequent absences are usually just confirmation of low engagement, which shows up in lots of different ways, and which is way more important to address than forcing someone to sit in front of their computer all day and pretend to be busy.
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I have worked where they did not have a set number of days instead they have an algorithm running and if your numbers are outside (on the high side) the σ (SD) for the company you get a call from HR to discuss at some point.
 
backmarkerducati said:
I have worked where they did not have a set number of days instead they have an algorithm running and if your numbers are outside (on the high side) the σ (SD) for the company you get a call from HR to discuss at some point.
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That makes a lot of sense. Really hard to incorporate in collective bargaining with a union. Every employee is equal and deserves complete protection no matter how little they work.
 
backmarkerducati said:
I have worked where they did not have a set number of days instead they have an algorithm running and if your numbers are outside (on the high side) the σ (SD) for the company you get a call from HR to discuss at some point.
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Years ago I read somewhere that Europeans on average take less sick days than North Americans and productivity is better It’s surely just a coincidence that many Europeans get nearly 6 weeks of vacation vs the standard 2 weeks of a North American worker though. Almost as if happy workers tend to be less ill.
 
jc100 said:
Years ago I read somewhere that Europeans on average take less sick days than North Americans and productivity is better It’s surely just a coincidence that many Europeans get nearly 6 weeks of vacation vs the standard 2 weeks of a North American worker though. Almost as if happy workers tend to be less ill.
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Or alternatively, many of the "sick" days taken here have nothing to do with sickness. Most people are unwilling or unable to work 240+ days per year.
 
I worked for a company that would give you 1 weeks pay the week before Christmas if you had ‘perfect’ attendance . Sick days could be made up to stay on track. If you had a serious medical , like heart attack or appendicitis, you could be foregiven , but the tummy flu didn’t count. I liked a couple hundred the week before C’Mas .


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