Removed catalytic ticket, EPA (not HTA) s22.(3), will it count against insurance? | GTAMotorcycle.com

Removed catalytic ticket, EPA (not HTA) s22.(3), will it count against insurance?

toysareforboys

toysareforboys

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"My friend" got a ticket for "Remove/Cause Removal or Permitting Removal Of Emission Control Equipment From Vehicle" Environmental Protection Act s22.(3). http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statutes/english/elaws_statutes_90e19_e.htm#s22s3

Edited: "Where a manufacturer installs … a system or device to prevent or lessen the discharge of any contaminant, no person shall remove or cause or permit the removal of the system or device from the motor or motor vehicle..."

$365 fine.

My only question is, if "my friend" plead guilty, would it affect his/her insurance? I was thinking being an EPA violation, it probably would not.

-Jamie M.
 
Not HTA, so it shouldn't affect insurance.

Car or bike? Heard of this happening with cars (lots). Never heard of it happening with bikes but many times on this and other forums, I've mentioned that it's theoretically possible. Everything I own that came with a catalytic converter, still has it, for this very reason.
 
It's curious that the cop knew the bike well enough to lay a charge. Manufacturers are not required to equip motorcycles with catalytic converters in the first place.
 
TwistedKestrel said:
It's curious that the cop knew the bike well enough to lay a charge. Manufacturers are not required to equip motorcycles with catalytic converters in the first place.
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Most new bikes come with them stock otherwise they won't be allowed to enter the local market. How would one even go about defending a hack mod like that considering the bike may have come with it stock?
 
this is not a moving violation ticket, it should not affect your insurance, just your pocket book.
 
Was it your friend who removed it or did he buy it like that from the previous owner? Maybe a legal expert can chime in on whether it's considered the current owner's fault if the vehicle was illegally modified by the previous owner yet still passed the safety certification and (for cars) the emissions test.
 
murf said:
You sure?

http://www.ec.gc.ca/lcpe-cepa/defau...0059-0129-2E87-C83CCB2A7FE0#X-201203131329323
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I didn't say it was unregulated completely, but the actual limits for what motorcycles can emit is pretty loose. For years they achieved emissions targets simply by jetting carbs as lean as possible under idle & low throttle.

One example is the Suzuki Boulevard S40, still being sold today - no cat. KLR 650s sold today may or may not have a cat. My Ninja 1000 does have a cat, but no O2 sensor, so it probably manages emissions about as well as a car built in the early 80's.
 
murf said:
You sure?

http://www.ec.gc.ca/lcpe-cepa/defau...0059-0129-2E87-C83CCB2A7FE0#X-201203131329323
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None of that specifically requires any motorcycle to be equipped with a catalytic converter. It may turn out that the emission limits are not achievable without using one ... but nothing says it has to have one. Also, there is a whole bunch in there on fleet averaging. This is how, until recently, Kawasaki could sell carbureted and non-catalyst Ninja 500's and 250's as long as they sold enough fuel-injected catalyst-equipped ZX6R's to offset them. The carb'ed engines are in the process of going away because of regulatory changes in the worldwide market. European emission standards are now considerably more stringent than those in North America. (Ninja 250 in EU is EFI/catalyst)

I'm not even sure how one could establish at the roadside whether any given bike (A) originally had a catalyst and (B) still has one. Cars have a big label under the hood describing the major components of the emission control system - I can't recall ever seeing such a thing on any motorcycle. If the bike has an obvious aftermarket full exhaust system then it's obvious that there's no catalyst, but the original catalyst on many exhaust systems is welded into the header pipes or welded into the muffler, and there's no realistic way to establish whether those are still there.

It may be a moot point. Original poster hasn't stated whether this was car or bike. I have a funny feeling that this is about a car.
 
Manufacturers are required to equip some models with cats to pass emissions, wether its some kind of average or not Im gonna bother looking up.
I have a feeling the manufacturers arent going to put expensive emmision controls on for nothing
 
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Brian P said:
It may be a moot point. Original poster hasn't stated whether this was car or bike. I have a funny feeling that this is about a car.
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That slipped past me ... and makes a lot more sense.
 
Brian P said:
Not HTA, so it shouldn't affect insurance.

Car or bike? Heard of this happening with cars (lots). Never heard of it happening with bikes but many times on this and other forums, I've mentioned that it's theoretically possible. Everything I own that came with a catalytic converter, still has it, for this very reason.
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It's a 2003 Yamaha R6. Came from the factory with a catalytic converter (news to me! lol), that was removed by the current owner when he changed the muffler (JUST the muffler!) to a Two Bro's. He was not aware the factory muffler contained the catalytic converter (I couldn't believe it when he told me either, but we looked it up, and it is in there! lol).

He was floored when the cop wrote him the ticket for no cat, he said to the cop "For SURE this bike never came with one!!! I know, I changed the muffler, and there was and is NO cat on this bike!". The cop said in reply "When someone has a muffler that is too loud, we just write em the three tickets now, $110 noise, $110 muffler, $365 emissions. If you have a cat, or it didn't come with one, they will dismiss that part in court, but I'm not an expert, I'm just saying most aftermarket systems dispose of the cat."

He didn't follow my advice of STFU when getting a ticket :(

This was in Markham.

Thanks for all the input guys, I may use this as a bargaining tool, if they drop the other two charges I'll get him to plea to the $365 EPA violation as it won't affect his insurance.

-Jamie M.
(P.S. The cop said as soon as he walked up to him, that their conversation was being recorded! First I've ever heard of this. Do you think I could request the audio tape with disclosure??)
 
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daveyflakes said:
Surely you mean "your friend".
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I'm doing the disclosure request for him, he has no idea what he's doing. Will probably represent him in court too :)

-Jamie M.
 
Anything that the courts plan to use as evidence, can be requested in disclosure.

This is the first time I've ever heard of that ticket being issued. It's yet another argument for staying with the stock exhaust system.

FWIW on my 2004 ZX10R, the catalyst is in the muffler. The later models moved it into the header/collector-box.
 
toysareforboys said:
(P.S. The cop said as soon as he walked up to him, that their conversation was being recorded! First I've ever heard of this. Do you think I could request the audio tape with disclosure??)
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Same thing a cop said to me last week, when he was questioning the angle of my flip plate ;)
 
Jayv said:
Same thing a cop said to me last week, when he was questioning the angle of my flip plate ;)
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Wow, must be something new!!!

I'll put it on the disclosure request and we'll see what they say I guess!

-Jamie M.
 
I could be wrong, but I thought the onus was on the prosecution to provide the evidence for the charge. If that's the case it's up to THEM to know (or find out) whether or not your bike has a catalytic converter as original equipment. "I don't know" is not a good answer for a cop to give when being questioned. I presume you can develop a question that will probably provide that answer. It might even be on that supposed recording.
 
Stewart said:
this is not a moving violation ticket, it should not affect your insurance, just your pocket book.
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Not true, check with your insurance agents. This is why I hate Statefarm. Any ticket you get, regardless if its a moving violation impacts your premiums. My car insurance company the Personal doesn't care unless the ticket is a moving violation. SF increased my premiums by 25% because I got a ticket for not having my DL card on me. I was carrying the expired card at the time. Didn't put the new one in my wallet. The agent told me if I get a ticket for a blown headlight that will impact my insurance as well. F>>> statefarm
 
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