Registering an electric motorcycle project in Ontario

[clutch]

I've been dreaming about an electric motorcycle project for a while. The rolling chassis will likely be obtained from a salvage yard and restored. I would also like the option to sell and transfer ownership down the road. What is needed to register this project in Ontario for street riding? Searching online makes numerous references to VIN and clear "title". For motorcycles, is VIN part of the frame? What if I use a front end from another model bike? What is "title"? I understand I should get a UVIP first to check that the frame has no liens.

I couldn't find much information out there for this particular case. I'd appreciate any links to point me in the right direction or any other considerations I may have missed. Thanks!

 

[GreyGhost]

I think insurance may be a bigger obstacle than the MTO here. Make sure you investigate that avenue as well before investing a lot in this project.

From an MTO perspective, the simple approach is you have a matching frame/title (ie. gsxr 600) and register the bike as a gsxr 600. Easy peasy. They don't ask you if it's been modified/engine replaced. VIN is normally stamped on the head tube of the frame, VIN on frame should match VIN on title to allow licensing.

Insurance on the other hand will hate you for conducting extensive mods (even if it turns out slower). Insurance likes predictability and grouping people, they don't have a group for "built their own thing and it may be ridiculously fast or slow and it may or may not be safe". You could ostrich and commit insurance fraud and tell them the bike was unmodified, but in any crash expect to be denied coverage and theft would only cover the value of the generic bike you started with, not the modified value.

 

[PrivatePilot]

This site may yield some useful info. It's designed around hot rod or home built cars versus motorcycles but for the purpose of the law I suspect it all translates directly.

http://www.canadianrodder.com/features/fyi/registering.htm

I agree that insurance is likely to be a stumbling block, so if I was you I would be calling around well in advance and making sure that I had a company willing to cover it (and get it in writing) before I even put one nut and bolt together building it.

 

[GreyGhost]

This site may yield some useful info. It's designed around hot rod or home built cars versus motorcycles but for the purpose of the law I suspect it all translates directly.

http://www.canadianrodder.com/features/fyi/registering.htm

I agree that insurance is likely to be a stumbling block, so if I was you I would be calling around well in advance and making sure that I had a company willing to cover it (and get it in writing) before I even put one nut and bolt together building it.

That page seems old, registering homebuilt/chopped up vehicles became harder in ontario a few years ago (not sure of the exact date). I'm not sure if these are the new rules or the old ones.

 

[GateKeeper]

Why not call the MTO and or go to one of their offices, to get the answer directly from them....

But I will save you a bit of time

I called them, took all of 10 minutes and got most of the info, but please do call them yourself and verify, or drop into one of their offices...

What ever you build must pass Safety, if you don't have that the rest is a moot point.....

you will need an Affidavit of how the bike was built, your full name, address, and anything else you can include to show this was done by you....

bring in bill of sale for any and all parts you might have purchased, ie, headlight, turn signals, shocks, rims, tires, handlebar, and so on, it just show you purchased something to make something and it was not already on the bike

Now with the Safety and Affidavit and your bills of sale, you go to MTO and register the bike, once verified they will assign you a VIN, or as with a home made trailer they might even allow you to make up your own, or bring in a vin plate you created with the number and they will register it, give you ownership and plates if you have insurance, no insurance no plates, but this you know....

if by chance you are using an existing frame, all the same above but the bike will be registered as rebuilt and changes made to reflect as to what it is now, easier to take an existing frame grind off the VIN and make up your own, if your not building the frame from scratch, but it would be about the same since you will not use the existing VIN from the frame you will modify...

anyways, this is what I was able to find out in a short time, do call and ask them for yourself, to make sure I did not miss anything or the lady I spoke with didn't as well

good luck on your project....



The link in the other posts and what it says is more or less of what I was just told, just with more detail........

 

[PrivatePilot]

That page seems old, registering homebuilt/chopped up vehicles became harder in ontario a few years ago (not sure of the exact date). I'm not sure if these are the new rules or the old ones.

entirely possible it's outdated, OP really needs to do homework that's for sure.

 

[Brian P]

The short answer is that it is virtually impossible to jump through all of the hurdles that the Ministry of Transportation, Transport Canada, and the insurance companies will put in front of you.

Most "home-built", "custom", "kit" vehicles etc assume the identity, VIN, registration paperwork, etc of a "donor vehicle", preferably one that pre-dates the existence of federal motor vehicle safety and emission standards (1960s - 1990s depending on what sorts of issues that you are talking about). This is not necessarily to imply that this is fully and unquestionably "legal", it is purely a means of placating the regulatory authorities (essentially by pulling the wool over their eyes) and satisfying the paperwork (which is pretty much all tied to the VIN).

 

[GateKeeper]

The short answer is that it is virtually impossible to jump through all of the hurdles that the Ministry of Transportation, Transport Canada, and the insurance companies will put in front of you.

Most "home-built", "custom", "kit" vehicles etc assume the identity, VIN, registration paperwork, etc of a "donor vehicle", preferably one that pre-dates the existence of federal motor vehicle safety and emission standards (1960s - 1990s depending on what sorts of issues that you are talking about). This is not necessarily to imply that this is fully and unquestionably "legal", it is purely a means of placating the regulatory authorities (essentially by pulling the wool over their eyes) and satisfying the paperwork (which is pretty much all tied to the VIN).

sorry but are you saying one should not and try to build something new ? Or something of ones own design ?

i don't see a whole lot of hurdle jumping, I did not get that impression from the MTO and or the article the link brings one too

pass the safety and your well on your way to registering your vehicle

or am I misreading your post

 

[hedo2002]

Yes the safety is a hurdle, but I think the lady at MTO left out a lot of other "requirements", The vehicle must satisfy all the reuirements of Transport Canada as well. IE lighting, documentation, safety features. This vehicle because it will be electric is going to bypass some of the most onerous standards of emmission testing/certification. Electric bikes are still relatively new to the market, (not even sure if HD has got regulatory permission yet to sell their electric bikes in Canada), but there "may" also be "noise requirements" in that the vehicle isn't running completely silent for safety purposes.

I would recommend the OP also besides MTO, check as recommended with insurance, as well as Transport Canada regarding home mage motorcycle regs. Insurance HATES "made up VINS" as the vehicle, will simply until it is registered, not show up in their databases. So it is highly probable it will need to go to an actual underwriter as opposed to just a "simple" quote

sorry but are you saying one should not and try to build something new ? Or something of ones own design ?

i don't see a whole lot of hurdle jumping, I did not get that impression from the MTO and or the article the link brings one too

pass the safety and your well on your way to registering your vehicle

or am I misreading your post

 

[GateKeeper]

Yes the safety is a hurdle, but I think the lady at MTO left out a lot of other "requirements", The vehicle must satisfy all the reuirements of Transport Canada as well. IE lighting, documentation, safety features. This vehicle because it will be electric is going to bypass some of the most onerous standards of emmission testing/certification. Electric bikes are still relatively new to the market, (not even sure if HD has got regulatory permission yet to sell their electric bikes in Canada, but there "may" also be "noise requirements" in that the vehicle isn't running completely silent for safety purposes.

I would recommend the OP alos besides, MTO check as recommended with insurance, as well as Transport Canada regs. Insurance HATES "made up VINS" as the vehicle will simply until it is registered not show up in the databases.

I believe some of you are over complicating this, if the lady at the MTO does not know what is required then who would ? She referenced back to her documentation and went through all the necessary guidelines, actually had me on hold for a good 10 minutes.

If the vehicle you are building does not pass Safety, well then MTO won't issue you anything anyways, this was the first thing she mentioned that was required, actually mentioned it a few times during our conversation.

What you mention about lighting, safety features these would be part of the safety inspection and if you fail on those well you won't get the safety and the MTO won't register the vehicle

As for the VIN, the insurance company has nothing to do with it, if it's made up by me or made up by the MTO (who can also make one up for you) as long as the VIN is registered it really won't matter, I have made up a few home built project trailers and stamped my own VIN and had them all registered at the MTO and also Insured no issues what so ever, because the MTO registered them and once they did that they were in the "database"

Have not looked into what Transport Canada requires, not even sure if it's got much to do with this at this point in time, he is building something for himself, not selling it and or mass producing it

There are a few electric bike already being sold in Canada, so I don't see his idea of doing an electric bike is going to be a problem either

The way some are thinking, we wouldn't be past the horse and buggy, I just think of some of the shows and the builds that go on, and all are more or less on the road, shows like American Chopper, Counting Cars, Gas Monkey Garage, and unfortunately I can't recall some of the Canadian ones.

If he wants to make it easy for himself, grab an old bike frame, grind off the VIN, or remove the VIN plate, build the bike, stamp your own VIN or VIN plate, "GateKeeper0001" for example and have it pass Safety, go to MTO with all the necessary documentation, and if all is good it will be registered, probably the easiest part of what the OP is looking at doing.....

Insurance I will not even talk about, but I am sure it won't be a huge problem, but best to check and get informed

 

[griff2]

Yes the safety is a hurdle, but I think the lady at MTO left out a lot of other "requirements", The vehicle must satisfy all the reuirements of Transport Canada as well. IE lighting, documentation, safety features. This vehicle because it will be electric is going to bypass some of the most onerous standards of emmission testing/certification. Electric bikes are still relatively new to the market, (not even sure if HD has got regulatory permission yet to sell their electric bikes in Canada), but there "may" also be "noise requirements" in that the vehicle isn't running completely silent for safety purposes.

I would recommend the OP also besides MTO, check as recommended with insurance, as well as Transport Canada regarding home mage motorcycle regs. Insurance HATES "made up VINS" as the vehicle, will simply until it is registered, not show up in their databases. So it is highly probable it will need to go to an actual underwriter as opposed to just a "simple" quote

A lot of this is applicable only for NEW vehicles being offered for sale in Canada by a manufacturer. The OP is not proposing to do this, nor is the OP necessarily proposing to build a new homemade bike from scratch.

If all he is doing is taking an existing old motorcycle and transplanting a different motor (albeit electric) in it, how is this really any different than someone who swaps a motor out of their old car for a different motor? Nobody gets Transport Canada involved in that, nor does MTO get involved except for possibly noting that the vehicle no longer has the original motor. "Made-up" VINs would not be an issue because the VIN presented to the MTO would be the original VIN of the frame used.

The only government regulatory issue I really see would be the Ontario safety inspection and obtaining insurance on a modified vehicle.

The Ontario safety inspection should be easy enough to pass even with a different motor, as few bikes have auxiliary systems that work off the engine. and even of the OP changed out the old-style incandescent or halogen lighting for low-draw LED lighting, that too shouldn't cause an issue as long as the OP sources lighting with an approved beam pattern.

Insurance would be the hardest part to satisfy, but again, insurers will insure modified vehicles such as the rat rods you see out on the street today that have minimal resemblance aesthetically or mechanically to what they were when they rolled off the assembly line decades ago. How would an re-motored electric motorcycle be that much different?

 

[griff2]

If he wants to make it easy for himself, grab an old bike frame, grind off the VIN, or remove the VIN plate, build the bike, stamp your own VIN or VIN plate, "GateKeeper0001" for example and have it pass Safety, go to MTO with all the necessary documentation, and if all is good it will be registered, probably the easiest part of what the OP is looking at doing.....

Why would he even bother to grind off the old VIn and get a new VIN is he has purchased an old bike with an Ontario title? You don't need to grind off the VIN and apply for a new one if you are doing a hot rod build.

 

[GateKeeper]

Why would he even bother to grind off the old VIn and get a new VIN is he has purchased an old bike with an Ontario title? You don't need to grind off the VIN and apply for a new one if you are doing a hot rod build.

I was suggesting on doing this, only if the bike no longer is what the VIN has it as, so if he uses a frame from a Honda CBR600RR and throws in an electric motor, and new plastics and it no longer looks like the original bike and now it's no longer a Honda CBR600RR, it would be easier to stamp a new VIN and call it what you wish with the description and color that it now is.

If it does manage to get on the road and you are pulled over and the COP runs the info on the vehicle and it still shows as a Honda CBR600RR, but it's nothing like it, there could be a lot of questions as to what is going on....

Just looking at keeping things simple

 

[hedo2002]

Yes I agree it won't be insuramountable task just trying to give the OP some suggestions. As for the MTO clerk, sometimes they get it right sometimes they don't. I had bought one of the first "chinese ATV's" for a firend one MTO office wanted letters from the manufacturer and Transport Canada as it wasn't in the MTO database. I called the dealer, he got the off road plate the next day as the office he regularly dealt with wasn't "as picky"..lol

When I mentioned the VIn in regards to insurance, it was merely to point out, when they provide a quote and get ready to issue a policy they simply look up the vin in their system. If the vin doesn't yet exist it will have to go to an underwriter. It may not be as easy as insuring a "regular" vehicle.

I also get that he isn't going to be mass producing or selling the vehicle, (initally anyway), but a vehicle that is going to be put on the road still has certain criteria that it must meet. As for american chopper and other such shows they are "builders" who have all the requirements and know what they must do once you begin to produce vehicles after the first one then it is simple, Gas Monkey takes "exisiting donor vehicles" and modifies them , Which is why your recommendation of usiing an "existing frame" would remove some of the issues the OP may face.

Again not discouraging the OP just advising, (because he asked for advice), that it isn't as simple as just building and going over to MTo and paying your plate fees and your good to go. there will be more that will be required.The whole point is the government wants a vehicle built SAFE before it is on the road and not just some guy who has no clue what they are doing throwing a "frankenstein" together..lol

Insurance will likely depend on the rep, the company policy and a few other unknowns. I think people are just saying check first before he spends say $2,000 building a bike only to then find out it can't be insured and therefore not able to be used on the street.

OP if you go ahead PLEASE keep posting all along your journey so others can learn from your experiences.

I believe some of you are over complicating this, if the lady at the MTO does not know what is required then who would ? She referenced back to her documentation and went through all the necessary guidelines, actually had me on hold for a good 10 minutes.

If the vehicle you are building does not pass Safety, well then MTO won't issue you anything anyways, this was the first thing she mentioned that was required, actually mentioned it a few times during our conversation.

What you mention about lighting, safety features these would be part of the safety inspection and if you fail on those well you won't get the safety and the MTO won't register the vehicle

As for the VIN, the insurance company has nothing to do with it, if it's made up by me or made up by the MTO (who can also make one up for you) as long as the VIN is registered it really won't matter, I have made up a few home built project trailers and stamped my own VIN and had them all registered at the MTO and also Insured no issues what so ever, because the MTO registered them and once they did that they were in the "database"

Have not looked into what Transport Canada requires, not even sure if it's got much to do with this at this point in time, he is building something for himself, not selling it and or mass producing it

There are a few electric bike already being sold in Canada, so I don't see his idea of doing an electric bike is going to be a problem either

The way some are thinking, we wouldn't be past the horse and buggy, I just think of some of the shows and the builds that go on, and all are more or less on the road, shows like American Chopper, Counting Cars, Gas Monkey Garage, and unfortunately I can't recall some of the Canadian ones.

If he wants to make it easy for himself, grab an old bike frame, grind off the VIN, or remove the VIN plate, build the bike, stamp your own VIN or VIN plate, "GateKeeper0001" for example and have it pass Safety, go to MTO with all the necessary documentation, and if all is good it will be registered, probably the easiest part of what the OP is looking at doing.....

Insurance I will not even talk about, but I am sure it won't be a huge problem, but best to check and get informed

 

[GateKeeper]

And I believe, if whatever the OP builds, makes, dreams up, and if it don't pass the Safety, nothing else will happen or can happen, as the Safety will or at least should ensure the build meets the necessary requirements to be on the road.

and let's not get into, well a Safety can be done sight unseen, yes it can, but for arguments sake lets presume this will follow a legit path......

if the OP gets a Safety and a VIN, the insurance company will see it as it will be in the system, no sense in getting insurance on something that has no registration, but he can register it and have a VIN, but it will be un-plated, as we know one does not get a plate unless one has insurance

 

[griff2]

If it does manage to get on the road and you are pulled over and the COP runs the info on the vehicle and it still shows as a Honda CBR600RR, but it's nothing like it, there could be a lot of questions as to what is going on....

Just looking at keeping things simple

Questions are no problem if you have easy and plausible answers to them.

Do you know how many cars out there registered as old Volkswagen Beetles look nothing like Beetles, and instead look like various European supercars, Mercedes SSKs, Manta buggies, mini-Hummers, old 30's Ford coupes, etc? ;-)

 

[GateKeeper]

Questions are no problem if you have easy and plausible answers to them.

Do you know how many cars out there registered as old Volkswagen Beetles look nothing like Beetles, and instead look like various European supercars, Mercedes SSKs, Manta buggies, mini-Hummers, old 30's Ford coupes, etc? ;-)

I have even heard of a Mercedes Black Series registered as a Honda Civic, so not much would surprise me

 

[hedo2002]

I have even heard of a Mercedes Black Series registered as a Honda Civic, so not much would surprise me

Yes I know of a "shady" atv dealer who put street tires, (they sell street legal atv tires for europe), on a korean ATV here then went to his "favorite" MTO clerk had her register it as a motorcycle. He rode it into Dover on the very next Dover 13th. He was promptly pulled over by the OPP and despite his registration they seized the plates, (he had blue bike plates as opposed to green off road plates), and impounded the bike, "for MTO clarification" A MTO senior official looked at it, canceled the registration and advised he could apply for a new registration as an off road vehicle...lol

Of course he had insured it properly as an ATV, (again he would have been screwed if he had ridden it on the road and needed to make a claim)..lol The european tires are not approved for North American road use.

 

[esphoto]

I would also pick up a copy of the most current HTA which outlines specific details on vehicle equipment. For a vehicle safety, equipment on the vehicle has to work, many would not know specific regulations regarding distances, clearance, etc. of equipment. Making sure to build it to those specs would help ease the process.

And I believe, if whatever the OP builds, makes, dreams up, and if it don't pass the Safety, nothing else will happen or can happen, as the Safety will or at least should ensure the build meets the necessary requirements to be on the road.

and let's not get into, well a Safety can be done sight unseen, yes it can, but for arguments sake lets presume this will follow a legit path......

if the OP gets a Safety and a VIN, the insurance company will see it as it will be in the system, no sense in getting insurance on something that has no registration, but he can register it and have a VIN, but it will be un-plated, as we know one does not get a plate unless one has insurance

 

[griff2]

I have even heard of a Mercedes Black Series registered as a Honda Civic, so not much would surprise me

There used to be a whole industry based around body kits to be put on VW Beetle chassis. Some are still in business.

Some of them were quite good, and all were legally and legitimately registered as VWs.

You could take one of these kits, pop it on a VW Beetle chassis, replace the VW flat-4 motor with either a Porsche 6 or a Mazda rotary, and still legitimately register it as a VW Beetle of colour green.

What the OP proposes would be similar, the main difference only being a two-wheel vehicle being converted.