Random roadside stop

[matt123]

You are not listening,the RCMP stated that the officer had to have reason and state that reason for detaining me Immediately.The RCMP also said I could press the issue If felt the need but strongly advised against it unless I changed my plates and painted the car as I would be targeted without doubt .The cop could not give us a reason for pulling us over,he never searched the car and backed off as soon as he realized we were informed and has witnesses that were at a bus stop.My point is other countries do not allow randoms stops as It is PROFILING and against basic rights.Driving privilege has nothing to do with it.So...you are saying if we want to drive we should give up our rights?Are you serious?I guess we already do because we allow random stops(profiling)

 

[Rob MacLennan]

Every year, there is a ton of people in Ontario getting ticketed because they forgot their license (in another wallet, purse, jacket, pants, or car). Most of these tickets are dropped if the driver is actually licensed, usually well before getting to court, because court time is getting more and more expensive, and it can’t be wasted on people pleading their cases.

However, we live in 2011, an age of wondrous computing deployments, and every police car happens to have a terminal. The cops can easily confirm if the license is valid (or if it has been revoked). So, just thinking out loud here… WHY NOT CHANGE THE LAW AND MAKE THE PHOTOCOPY A VALID ALTERNATIVE to confirm licensing? That way we could keep a photocopy in the glove box of every car or motorcycle that we operate. We fulfill the requirement (confirm if we are licensed or not), and we don’t get any tickets that ultimately waste tax payers money in court (not to mention thousands of wasted man-hours a year of people driving to court to show the license to the prosecutor, who drops the tickets afterward).

Even better, why not load the license to a cell phone application? The banking industry is planning to “load” a credit card into an app for smart phones, so every phone becomes a “tap-and-go” paying device. I imagine an alternative app where I could load my license, registration, etc. The cop says “License and registration please” and I say “Right here, officer, please scan it”, showing him my cell phone screen. He scans it and knows if license, registration, and ownership are in order.

So you would also make that information available, to the average driver on the street? See my previous post.

 

[turbodish]

You are not listening,the RCMP stated that the officer had to have reason and state that reason for detaining me Immediately.The RCMP also said I could press the issue If felt the need but strongly advised against it unless I changed my plates and painted the car.The cop could not give us a reason for pulling us over,he never searched the car and backed off as soon as he realized we were informed and has witnesses that were at at bus stop.My point is other countries do not allow randoms stops as It is PROFILING and against basic rights.

The RCMP said that? And who's not listening?

The RCMP are not authorized to do traffic or street policing in Ontario, and as such would not necessarily have a full understanding of Ontario's traffic laws. The RCMP officer that was speaking may have come in from another jurisdiction where the traffic regs are different from Ontario's and where random vehicle stops are not permitted.

Ontario law at that time, as per the HTA of 1980, explicitly permitted random traffic stops for purposes of verifying documentation. The Supreme Court of Canada validated the Ontario law permitting such stops as being valid.

By the way, MANY other countries permit random stops of vehicles for documentation checks.

 

[MarcosSantiago]

And how many people forget their cell phone at home from time to time, in another purse, jacket, pants, or car? How is that any different from leaving your government-issued driver's license in those locations? Or are you suggesting that you should be able to keep multiple copies of your license in all sorts of different media formats, and the cops would be expected to be able to discern the validity of each as they encounter them?

And what about document control when a driver's license can be replicated in multiple locations and formats? Current Ontario law stipulates that you may not have duplicate driver's licenses in your possession. Expired licenses must be destroyed as soon as you are in receipt of a replacement. Given that a license is a pretty key piece of identification, just how wise is it to permit the proliferation of multiple copies of said identification?

Yes, that is exactly what I am proposing... "multiple" formats. And why not? Currently, the concept already exists - the registration of the car is valid in the original or as a photocopy (two different "formats").

And how are the cops expected to discern the validity of each one? Easy, just like they do today.... using the computers.

Please don't say "Current Ontario law..." ... I'm not talking about the way things are currently. I am talking about the way things should be... or will be.

 

[MarcosSantiago]

So you would also make that information available, to the average driver on the street? See my previous post.

But why not? In case of an accident, I would not have any trouble identifying myself (to the other party). Currently, I would show you my license and insurance... as you are copying the information by hand, you may take a photo with your cell phone for all I know (or care).

In my futuristic and craptastic example, both drivers would beam their insurance and license info to each other, from smartphone to smartphone. Encryption, PKI, and digital certificates would ensure the info is authentic. It is just like copying the data by hand, just faster and better.

 

[turbodish]

Please don't say "Current Ontario law..." ... I'm not talking about the way things are currently. I am talking about the way things should be... or will be.

A vehicle registration is not the same as a key piece of personal ID. A vehicle usually doesn;t go places on its own.

There are usually valid grounds for certain laws being what they are. Using the computers only verifies that a given ID proferred does relate to a specific person, but it does not necessarily verify that the person proferring that ID is the person to whom the ID is issued even if that person resembles the photo on said ID.

Until the government starts recording and incorporating biometrics into government-issued ID, being able to create multiple copies of a key piece of personal ID is just a great way to make identity theft even easier, whether by your own carelessness or by deliberate counterfeiting of ID by others.

One physical piece of ID cuts down the chances of ID abuse by others. You want to be able to make multiple copies of a driver's license on various electronic media just in case you forget your driver's license? What happens to your ID when you forget one of your multiple copies at the mall, at work, falls out on the roller coaster, etc? With multiple copies will you even notice and if so, after how long? All that will do for the forgetful is enable to them to forget more often.

 

[Rob MacLennan]

But why not? In case of an accident, I would not have any trouble identifying myself (to the other party). Currently, I would show you my license and insurance... as you are copying the information by hand, you may take a photo with your cell phone for all I know (or care).

In my futuristic and craptastic example, both drivers would beam their insurance and license info to each other, from smartphone to smartphone. Encryption, PKI, and digital certificates would ensure the info is authentic. It is just like copying the data by hand, just faster and better.

You're a computer profession I believe, aren't you? Surely you understand what a monumental breach of personal privacy that would be? If not, then I suggest you consult the office of the Privacy Commissioner.

 

[turbodish]

In my futuristic and craptastic example, both drivers would beam their insurance and license info to each other, from smartphone to smartphone. Encryption, PKI, and digital certificates would ensure the info is authentic. It is just like copying the data by hand, just faster and better.

Why stop at multiple copies on electronic media. May as well embed your ID in a RFID chip under your collar, just like we do with pets. Is being required to carry a simple plastic hard card ID (with or without RFID on the card) when driving starting to sound better now?

 

[MarcosSantiago]

You're a computer profession I believe, aren't you? Surely you understand what a monumental breach of personal privacy that would be? If not, then I suggest you consult the office of the Privacy Commissioner.

Now it seems obvious that we are not talking about the same thing. What breach of privacy? The data to be exchanged is the same in both situations (copying info by hand from your physical license, or doing it electronically).


EDIT

In an effort to clarify my point, let me use this EXAMPLE:
I crash my motorcycle into yours. Nobody is hurt.

We are to exchange the following information (I'll give you mine, and will get yours): Name, Driver's License number, addresses, phone numbers, insurance and vehicle particulars (Source: "What to do in case of an accident?". http://www.caasco.com/insurance/claims/what-to-do-in-case-of-accident.jsp )

To do so, I will give you my drivers license and insurance slip, so you copy my info using a pen and piece of paper. You do the same, and I get your personal info from your license and insurance papers. I go home with a piece of paper -- and no assurances that the data is valid (without knowing if your license and insurance are real or very good fakes, I have no certainties that you are who you say you are, or that you are actually insured).

Or, we exchange exactly the same info electronically, with the certainty of a certification authority (Verisign, the goverment of Ontario, or others) confirming that the info is valid.

Hope this is clearer.

 

[MarcosSantiago]

Why stop at multiple copies on electronic media. May as well embed your ID in a RFID chip under your collar, just like we do with pets. Is being required to carry a simple plastic hard card ID (with or without RFID on the card) when driving starting to sound better now?

One step at the time, my friend.
The smart phone goes first, the implant next.
What is the big deal about it?

 

[OpenGambit]

I think your smart phone idea is really solving a problem that doesn't exist.
having some kinda data verification for that information just.. isn't necessary because there isn't a widespread problem of people running around with a fake DL, insurance papers and places just for when they get in a car accident.
There isn't a problem that would justify the infrastructure cost.

And I don't see how it makes it easier on anyone to carry a smart phone instead of a licence, the reason you leave your licence at home is easily the same as the reasons you leave your smart phone at home.

 

[Rob MacLennan]

Now it seems obvious that we are not talking about the same thing. What breach of privacy? The data to be exchanged is the same in both situations (copying info by hand from your physical license, or doing it electronically).


EDIT

In an effort to clarify my point, let me use this EXAMPLE:
I crash my motorcycle into yours. Nobody is hurt.

We are to exchange the following information (I'll give you mine, and will get yours): Name, Driver's License number, addresses, phone numbers, insurance and vehicle particulars (Source: "What to do in case of an accident?". http://www.caasco.com/insurance/claims/what-to-do-in-case-of-accident.jsp )

To do so, I will give you my drivers license and insurance slip, so you copy my info using a pen and piece of paper. You do the same, and I get your personal info from your license and insurance papers. I go home with a piece of paper -- and no assurances that the data is valid (without knowing if your license and insurance are real or very good fakes, I have no certainties that you are who you say you are, or that you are actually insured).

Or, we exchange exactly the same info electronically, with the certainty of a certification authority (Verisign, the goverment of Ontario, or others) confirming that the info is valid.

Hope this is clearer.

Oh, it's clear. It always was. It's simply not persuasive. Electronic data can be forged forge and gives more possibility of abuse, than does a card. Why not simply carry the license card, that you are required to have on your person at any time you are operating a vehicle?

 

[MarcosSantiago]

Oh, it's clear. It always was. It's simply not persuasive. Electronic data can be forged forge and gives more possibility of abuse, than does a card. Why not simply carry the license card, that you are required to have on your person at any time you are operating a vehicle?

It may not be enough to convince you - on the other hand, I still can't see your point (the "monumental breach of personal privacy").

PLEASE don't tell me that you agree with Turboish when he wrote "One physical piece of ID cuts down the chances of ID abuse by others" . Digital data can be protected against forgery much better, and gives much less possibility of abuse, than an old plastic card . You know that!

 

[Cat13]

PLEASE don't tell me that you agree with Turboish when he wrote "One physical piece of ID cuts down the chances of ID abuse by others" . Digital data can be protected against forgery much better, and gives much less possibility of abuse, than an old plastic card . You know that!

Its part of the law to carry your id. Dont like it... dont drive. Its a fricken piece of plastic. If you cant carry a stupid piece of plastic then you've got bigger issues and deserve the tickets that come because of it.

Plus have you not seen the big companies getting hacked.... you really think its that hard to hack into the government **** if someone wanted to?

 

[MarcosSantiago]

I think your smart phone idea is really solving a problem that doesn't exist.
having some kinda data verification for that information just.. isn't necessary because there isn't a widespread problem of people running around with a fake DL, insurance papers and places just for when they get in a car accident.
There isn't a problem that would justify the infrastructure cost.

And I don't see how it makes it easier on anyone to carry a smart phone instead of a licence, the reason you leave your licence at home is easily the same as the reasons you leave your smart phone at home.

Actually, the "problem" that I am trying to "resolve" (I’m not) is the penalties for not having your driver's license with you. The idea of police writing you up just because you forgot a piece of laminated cardboard is so 1900's.

The purpose of a driver’s license is to confirm that the operator of a vehicle is authorized to do so. Technically is not "a key piece of personal ID" like Turbo wrote (in practice is may be used as ID, but legally is not a requirement to obtain one, if it were an obligation, it would be a national ID card instead of a license, and everybody would have one, even children and people who don't drive). It is important to reiterate this point – the license is just there so the cops can confirm that the operator is allowed to drive or not.

The second point then is that there is more than one way for the cops to confirm someone is licensed. Like carrying a photocopy, the officer just punches in the license # into the computer. The example of the smartphone app is just taking things one step further. And the point is not to carry your smartphone instead of a license, it is one OR the other or both, and you still fulfill your obligation to allow the officers to confirm if you are licensed or not. Anyway, the cops will use the computer to confirm.

About the infrastructure cost – unfortunately (or fortunately) that is already underway – Ontario has sunk millions of dollars into the ehealth infrastructure, and one of the many changing goals is to give a digital ID to every Ontarian to access their records over networked applications. It would be simple to create separate apps for driver’s license records, fishing and boating licenses, etc. Then, the private sector could piggyback and use the digital identities of Ontarians to allow access to different systems.

Conclusion – please ignore me, I am the same guy who proposed that the laser guns that the cops currently use should have printing capabilities to produce a short printout that the cop would hand to the driver together with the speeding ticket, possibly reducing the volume of people who decide to fight their speeding tickets.

 

[MarcosSantiago]

Its part of the law to carry your id...

This is the argument that some people use (a lot) around here "Oh, but it is the law, so it must be right!!"
Or "But that's the way we have done it from the beginning of time, so it must be the best way"

If you cant carry a stupid piece of plastic then you've got bigger issues and deserve the tickets that come because of it.

That is part of my point, even if you get the ticket, most of the time it does not "stick", they drop them as soon as you show your license, before you go to actual court. It is a waste of time really.

Anyway, tell me more about this hacking that you talk about...

 

[revrandy]

They can check documentation on their computer....what got me thinking about this is that in some states, you usually only have to give police your name....not sure about when riding though

Some states are stop and identify states meaning if asked all you have to do is state your name (aka identify yourself). However that does not apply to someone driving a vehicle or motorcycle. As a licence is required to legally operate a vehicle or motorcycle, the police have every right to see documentation that you are licenced to do just that. Now if you are walking then a drivers licence is not required to be shown.

 

[Onagoth]

Yes...the question was actually directly answered in a couple posts somewhere throughout this thread. For the record, its not like I was doing anything wrong, just wanted to confirm things I've heard.

Thanks guys for the informative responses

 

[E. Honda]

The RCMP are not authorized to do traffic or street policing in Ontario, and as such would not necessarily have a full understanding of Ontario's traffic laws.

Not sure what you mean by this exactly. I'm pretty confident RCMP can issue traffic tickets in Ontario.

 

[Rob MacLennan]

Not sure what you mean by this exactly. I'm pretty confident RCMP can issue traffic tickets in Ontario.

I don't believe that they're covered under the Ontario Police Services Act.