Quebec Trial - Car Stops to help ducks, Motorcycle hits car (fatality) | Page 8 | GTAMotorcycle.com

Quebec Trial - Car Stops to help ducks, Motorcycle hits car (fatality)

There difference would have been one of criminal responsibility, if she had been there through no fault of her own. This was a choice.

I'll repeat my question, how would it have been different FOR THE RIDERS? Charging someone in this case is absolutely crazy, but I will gladly acknowledge that as my own opinion, and I am aware it is the law. BUT....the flawed reasoning that really isn't debatable is that there are dead people in this and many other scenarios, that would be just as dead if she was NOT criminally responsible. So, for the benefit of the younger and less experienced, do you want the law to save your *** out on the roads, or some common sense and defensive skills?
 
Very flawed thinking here. WHY a vehicle is stopped is largely irrelevant; if she slammed on her brakes if front of the guy then she committed a careless act, but a vehicle being parked for any reason isn't going to change the outcome of the twat who didn't take the appropriate precautions to avoid it. I would go as far as to say that the reason she was stopped should not have even been considered. If people don't ride like twats, they may actually live a while longer. There never should be any justification for someone hitting a parked vehicle. I had a guy who crashed into my HOUSE and tried to blame the truck that was parked out front (legally). If you cannot see or react to a stationary hazard, YOU are the problem that needs fixing, period

Irrelevant? I think the reason(s) why the vehicle is stopped is crucial to this matter.

The jury was asked to decided if this was an accident or a crime, based on the reason why the car was stopped.

Chassé, the prosecutor put it better than I ever could when she said ... "She argued that if Czornobaj had merely braked suddenly to avoid hitting the ducklings, it would have involved a reflex action.“Don’t you believe that (scenario) is an accident? Those are not the facts in this case,” Chassé said. “She made choices. She made decisions. She was aware of the danger.”

The car stops because a mechanical issue? An accident.
The car stops because she made a conscious decision? Her fault.
 
I'll repeat my question, how would it have been different FOR THE RIDERS? Charging someone in this case is absolutely crazy, but I will gladly acknowledge that as my own opinion, and I am aware it is the law. BUT....the flawed reasoning that really isn't debatable is that there are dead people in this and many other scenarios, that would be just as dead if she was NOT criminally responsible. So, for the benefit of the younger and less experienced, do you want the law to save your *** out on the roads, or some common sense and defensive skills?

Well, everybody knows that the outcome would be the same for the rider(s). Hitting a parked car at that speed is lethal.

But the riders were not charged, so your argument is not going anywhere.

And even when the jury considered the fact that the motorcycle was speeding, the judge instructed them to consider it together with this question "what Czornobaj did... can or cannot be considered the significant cause of his death?"

Hell, yeah, at the end of the day any jury is going to say that her decision was the significant (or most significant) cause of their deaths...
 
Irrelevant? I think the reason(s) why the vehicle is stopped is crucial to this matter.

The jury was asked to decided if this was an accident or a crime, based on the reason why the car was stopped.

Chassé, the prosecutor put it better than I ever could when she said ... "She argued that if Czornobaj had merely braked suddenly to avoid hitting the ducklings, it would have involved a reflex action.“Don’t you believe that (scenario) is an accident? Those are not the facts in this case,” Chassé said. “She made choices. She made decisions. She was aware of the danger.”

The car stops because a mechanical issue? An accident.
The car stops because she made a conscious decision? Her fault.

In addition to my earlier remarks, my argument as to why I disagree with the law, is that the riders were also negligent....I didn't say she should not have been charged in any way, but I cannot agree with a criminal component. I don't need anyone to reiterate over and over the difference of reasons that she would have been pulled over.....my contention is that a vehicle being pulled over is very much a reasonable scenario to come across anywhere, and it is equally reasonable to expect that a motorist should be driving/riding in such a way as to visually identify and react to such hazards. These people ultimately paid with lives which is a tragedy, and she will face an emotional Hell that the we will never know the scope of. There is absolutely no benefit to society either punitively or in the name of rehabilitation to have this case spoken to by way of incarceration. None.
 
Well, everybody knows that the outcome would be the same for the rider(s). Hitting a parked car at that speed is lethal.

But the riders were not charged, so your argument is not going anywhere.

And even when the jury considered the fact that the motorcycle was speeding, the judge instructed them to consider it together with this question "what Czornobaj did... can or cannot be considered the significant cause of his death?"

Hell, yeah, at the end of the day any jury is going to say that her decision was the significant (or most significant) cause of their deaths...

Wow. I don't think you're capable or willing to think about this. So let me get your view straight, you think that we should be able to ride any way we want, and if someone contributes to our ultimate demise, the courts have us covered (even posthumously?) My argument is actually going somewhere thanks. I'm not having trouble understanding the courts decision, I am disagreeing with it. My common sense to surviving on the roads is more important to me than any supposed legal deterrents.
 
This was the most retarded conviction ever.

#1 There was no criminal intent.
#2 Now I'll admit I may be of above average intelligence, but if an object is getting larger, it means you are approaching it, if you do not stop you will hit it and in the case of being on a motorcycle, going at ~130km/hr ... You will most likely die :(

Are we going to start charging rocks and moose for killing people? Lock up all the moose in jail? Think about the implications of this decision.

This is just my opinion of course.
 
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Edit: Nevermind bad example.
 
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I'll repeat my question, how would it have been different FOR THE RIDERS? Charging someone in this case is absolutely crazy, but I will gladly acknowledge that as my own opinion, and I am aware it is the law. BUT....the flawed reasoning that really isn't debatable is that there are dead people in this and many other scenarios, that would be just as dead if she was NOT criminally responsible. So, for the benefit of the younger and less experienced, do you want the law to save your *** out on the roads, or some common sense and defensive skills?

Try this thought experiment on for size. The driver doesn't illegally park her vehicle at the side of the road, based on her own flawed reasoning and criminally negligent actions BY CHOICE. How is the outcome different for the riders in THIS SPECIFIC situation?
 
Try this thought experiment on for size. The driver doesn't illegally park her vehicle at the side of the road, based on her own flawed reasoning and criminally negligent actions BY CHOICE. How is the outcome different for the riders in THIS SPECIFIC situation?

The guy who can't control his Harley and is showboating and tailgating with his 16 yr old daughter eventually hits a moose or wipes out on gravel and the rocks are in jail (the moose is dead as well), replace rocks and moose for logs, rain, a traffic jam. Hell you can substitute almost anything for a parked car.
 
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The guy who can't control his Harley and is showboating and tailgating with his 16 yr old daughter eventually hits a moose or wipes out on gravel and the rocks are in jail (the moose is dead as well), replace rocks and moose for logs, rain, a traffic jam. Hell you can substitute almost anything for a parked car.

You can substitute whatever you want to. The truth is we don't have to hypothesize anything, because we have a real scenario.
 
Duck lady used poor judgement. Like running with scissors at the swimming pool. Reminds me of the tow truck driver who left part of the truck in the fast lane. All night casino gambler driving into morning sun lost his life. Some people have no luck.
 
Wow. I don't think you're capable or willing to think about this. So let me get your view straight, you think that we should be able to ride any way we want, and if someone contributes to our ultimate demise, the courts have us covered (even posthumously?) My argument is actually going somewhere thanks. I'm not having trouble understanding the courts decision, I am disagreeing with it. My common sense to surviving on the roads is more important to me than any supposed legal deterrents.

Let me then do the same to your argument:

Let me get your view straight, you think that we should be able to park our cars on the hwy any way we want, and if someone dies, the courts should give us a pass.

Mmmh, OK then.

By the way, it is not that I am incapable of thinking. I also disagree with the ruling 'cause it makes me uncomfortable at a personal level. Duck girl was shafted because, given the continuous instructions from the judge, she HAD to be found guilty of criminal negligence. And I feel bad for her.

But she had to be charged with something. Or do you think she is totally innocent? Part of your argument is that the negligent party in this case was the motorcycle rider - who was "riding like a twat".

Do you think she is totally NOT at fault?
Consider this - Did you see how tiny the shoulder on the left lane is? Did you see how wide the shoulder on the other side is (on the right lane)? But she decided to park on the left... she has to be responsible for that.
 
Try this thought experiment on for size. The driver doesn't illegally park her vehicle at the side of the road, based on her own flawed reasoning and criminally negligent actions BY CHOICE. How is the outcome different for the riders in THIS SPECIFIC situation?


Boy, avoiding an answer by providing another question....pretty weak IMHO. Anyway, in my example, I didn't alter one single mitigating factor of events, just the reasoning. All physical realities are identical and consistent, hence my focus on the same outcome. In your "experiment" you offer hypothetical thoughts that we may as well drag to the moon and back for all the relevance they have. For the umpteenth time, as vehicle operators, we have a common sense obligation to be ready for foreseeable hazards on the road, and operate accordingly. It really doesn't get any simpler than that.

The thought process that this pathetic court decision undermines is a basic premise utilized when considering many traffic laws. People will always brain fart, but you have a considerably better chance of survival if you do not stray really far from a given law. In this case, speed, lack of visibility, load capacity of the vehicle were all well beyond what the scenario could absorb. Take it all down a notch, and he could have had more time to identify a hazard, decelerate, maneuver, and ultimately possibly survive the impact at a lower velocity. The court decision does nothing to speak to that, and that is the part I disagree with.
Contrary to what has been insinuated by you earlier, I am not saying the riders need further punishment; they are dead. Even if they lived, my expectation would simply be the same as I would expect of the car operator in this case; HTA charges, appropriate fines, bump to the insurance, etc. There is no criminal component here.
 
Let me then do the same to your argument:

Let me get your view straight, you think that we should be able to park our cars on the hwy any way we want, and if someone dies, the courts should give us a pass.

Nope, you're not there yet. Read what I wrote again. I am basically saying that the court implies a degree of safety that we can expect by virtue of legislation that is not only completely unrealistic, but of no benefit to anyone after the fact. I did not write a single syllable about getting "a pass".

Mmmh, OK then.

By the way, it is not that I am incapable of thinking. I also disagree with the ruling 'cause it makes me uncomfortable at a personal level. Duck girl was shafted because, given the continuous instructions from the judge, she HAD to be found guilty of criminal negligence. And I feel bad for her.

But she had to be charged with something. Or do you think she is totally innocent? Part of your argument is that the negligent party in this case was the motorcycle rider - who was "riding like a twat".

No... as I said, traffic charges yes, criminal - no. That's my opinion, nothing more. I think the severity of her conviction is mitigated by the riders contribution to this. To elaborate, if the rider WAS riding defensively, and there was a similar outcome, I would support more of the penalty on to her. My ongoing contention is that her actions could have, would have, and definitely should have been avoided by a prudent operator of a motor vehicle.
Do you think she is totally NOT at fault?

See above

Consider this - Did you see how tiny the shoulder on the left lane is? Did you see how wide the shoulder on the other side is (on the right lane)? But she decided to park on the left... she has to be responsible for that.


Yes, I agree she did something dumb, no doubt at all. I'm not a victim blamer by nature, but I am pointing out that the tragedy followed by the courts ferocity is not benefiting anybody on any level. Want to send a message? She loses her license.... for a long frigging time. She does hundreds of hours in an educational community service capacity at rider and driver training schools.. She already will be facing gobs of civil litigation so that's buttoned up there, what more do people want? For society to be "repaid" for this incident, her doing time is not the way. As far as motorcyclists in particular, it's my opinion that the old training school message is always true....people do not see you, make allowances for you, and they are probably stupid. Ride accordingly. Speeding blind into a corner with a passenger (or alone) kinda falls under the old "play stupid games, win stupid prizes" designation
 
Boy, avoiding an answer by providing another question....pretty weak IMHO. Anyway, in my example, I didn't alter one single mitigating factor of events, just the reasoning. All physical realities are identical and consistent, hence my focus on the same outcome. In your "experiment" you offer hypothetical thoughts that we may as well drag to the moon and back for all the relevance they have. For the umpteenth time, as vehicle operators, we have a common sense obligation to be ready for foreseeable hazards on the road, and operate accordingly. It really doesn't get any simpler than that.

The thought process that this pathetic court decision undermines is a basic premise utilized when considering many traffic laws. People will always brain fart, but you have a considerably better chance of survival if you do not stray really far from a given law. In this case, speed, lack of visibility, load capacity of the vehicle were all well beyond what the scenario could absorb. Take it all down a notch, and he could have had more time to identify a hazard, decelerate, maneuver, and ultimately possibly survive the impact at a lower velocity. The court decision does nothing to speak to that, and that is the part I disagree with.
Contrary to what has been insinuated by you earlier, I am not saying the riders need further punishment; they are dead. Even if they lived, my expectation would simply be the same as I would expect of the car operator in this case; HTA charges, appropriate fines, bump to the insurance, etc. There is no criminal component here.

There is nothing hypothetical in my statement. It happened. Someone was charged. Someone was convicted. That's my point.
 
There is nothing hypothetical in my statement. It happened. Someone was charged. Someone was convicted. That's my point.

Explain please

Quebec: Duck lady does something that, if it didn't kill anyone, would have netted her a minor ticket. Someone did die so she is going to jail.

Ontario: Left turner does something that, if someone doesn't die, would net a minor ticket. Someone does die but the left turner just gets the minor ticket.
 
Some women (mostly) and men, have no sense of their surroundings, they don't sense the consequences to other drivers because of their actions.
 
It is quite right, 115km/h or even 130km/h is not unreasonable on a Sunday with nice weather. The limit should be at least 110km/h IMO for it to be reasonable, it is a shame that they use it as a legal defense. Statistically the average speed is 120km/h on the highways... (told by an OPP officer who frequently conducts laser detections on the 403).
 
Wow. I don't think you're capable or willing to think about this. So let me get your view straight, you think that we should be able to ride any way we want, and if someone contributes to our ultimate demise, the courts have us covered (even posthumously?) My argument is actually going somewhere thanks. I'm not having trouble understanding the courts decision, I am disagreeing with it. My common sense to surviving on the roads is more important to me than any supposed legal deterrents.

I agree with you. We as riders need to be aware of hazardous situations constantly, and always be prepared for it by riding defensively. Ultimately it is our loss in a collision. I like your great examples, what if the car were to stop for any other reasons? The judge may change the perspective of who's at fault. You inspired our thoughts of this issue and overall riding/driving sense. I do want to stress that although it is partially our fault if we don't ride safely on the road, other drivers on the road must also be aware of the immediate danger and act upon it to minimize accident happening at the first place.
 
Explain please

Quebec: Duck lady does something that, if it didn't kill anyone, would have netted her a minor ticket. Someone did die so she is going to jail.

Ontario: Left turner does something that, if someone doesn't die, would net a minor ticket. Someone does die but the left turner just gets the minor ticket.

That's where my comment about having a legal system rather than a justice system comes in. There's also the difference between simple negligence and gross (criminal) negligence, as assessed by a court of law.
 

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