push steering confusion

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You want physics, you get physics.

You push on the left handlebar.

The steering momentarily veers to the right taking the tire track out to the right (from under the center of gravity).

The bike pivots around its center of gravity, thus leaning left.

The combination of gyroscopic effects and torque reactions between the tire contact patch and the steering axis lead to a situation in which the steering PUSHES BACK AGAINST YOU i.e. the steering moves back to the left. At a certain balance point, the steering will have PUSHED BACK against the force that you imposed, just enough so that the forces carrying the bike to the outside of the curve are balanced by gravity wanting to make the bike fall in. At this balance point, the steering will have turned itself back to the left by enough to carry the correct tire track around the curve, which requires that the steering be slightly left of center at this point. Don't confuse that eventual steady-state condition, with the forces that the rider had to impose in order to create that condition and with the momentary transient conditions that the bike had to go through in order to reach that balance. The rider had to push left ... the steering momentarily turned right which caused the lean angle to go left ... various forces resulting from this reaction turned the steering left pushing back against the rider's imposed force, until the situation reaches the rider's desired lean angle, at which the rider's removal of left-pushing forces causes the bike to stop increasing its leftward lean angle.

By the way, if the steering and tire geometries are correct, it should require nearly zero input from the rider to maintain a steady lean angle once it has been achieved. If your tires are worn out, or the tire pressures are wrong, or if the suspension and steering geometry of your bike are wrong, or if inappropriate tire sizes or profiles have been installed ... that might not be the case. I am very insistent on setting up my race bike so that it has neutral steering (it requires no input from the handlebars to maintain steady lean angle) and because I know how correct steering feels, I am fussy about it with my street bikes as well. It's also why I cringe whenever I read about riders who want to make drastic ride height changes (generally, lowering) or install fashionably fat wheels or tires on a bike that didn't originally come that way. You can do stuff to make your bike work better ... or you can do stuff to make your bike look a certain way but otherwise completely bugger it up and turn it into an ill-handling beast that won't turn and wants to do nothing but put you straight into the guard rail or ditch at the outside of every corner.
 
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Take a deep breath and read it over again. You might be surprised.
I understand he is asking about the tires, but the reason for the question is because he is confused about push steering, meaning that at this point he still doesn't understand how to push steer, the question about the tires is not relevant, hence why some of us were trying to help him understand push steering ignoring the stupid tire question because all he is doing is "over thinking"
 
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I should add that the concept of push-steering applies regardless of speed. It's the way two-wheeled vehicles work ... at ALL speeds. At low speeds the forces involved might be too small to notice, but they are there.

When starting up from a stop at a traffic signal at which I wish to make a left turn, I routinely put the bike into the desired left lean angle immediately by steering to the right (i.e. pushing on the left bar) immediately upon starting off. It requires nearly zero effort at such low speed ... but it's there.
 
the bike is leaned over. he's not turning the bars in the direction he wants to go, the bike is making an arc on the ground because he is leaning it over.

geez dude, you need some seat time. push left go left. push right go right.

+1

Young rider stop over thinking it and get some seat time.. It's one thing to know why the bike acts the way it does. It's another to actually feel it happening beneath you. This is only my third year of riding and very much consider myself a noob.. It's because you never really stop learning and improving your riding. Reading a lot of books and articles will help you understand.. But experience is still the best teacher.

But if you really must know about counter steering..
As I understand it turning is actually a two step process. The first step is Counter steer which "initiates" the turn (this is done by the RIDER) counter steer causes the bike to LEAN in the opposite direction of the handle bars that's why you push left to go left.
Once the bike is leaned over, the second part of the is done by the BIKE. Like KOMA said.. The bike is making an arc and the wheels will correct themselves and follow the turn. You don't have to worry about this part because the bike is doing it. This is where throttle control is your friend as it controls your arc.
And yes, to tighten the turn.. You apply more pressure on the inside bar which will cause the bike to lean more. As you come out of the turn you stand the bike up by counter steering in the opposite direction.

Here are a couple of good reads when you're bored

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering

http://www.sportrider.com/tips/146_0904_controlling_cornering_arc_with_throttle/
Sport rider has a lot of good articles on riding tips
 
Someone who puts more stock in a youtube video then their own physical experiences.... my gawd...

Stop arguing with physics, and listen to ZX600 for everyones sake. Please.

Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk 4 Beta
 
Yes, but some people never get over 30 on a bicycle.
Most people will bicycle steer a bicycle.

Plus, the quote you put with your answer didn't help the situation.
I think the quote meant that when steering his bicycle, he would keep the bars turned as he went through the corner. (bicycle steering the bicycle.)

So he actually would keep steering his bicycle by pushing the left bar forward to go right.

huh? what quote? I only quoted you.

edit: do you mean when I replied to the OP on the first page? the last two lines seem to only be about counter-steering to me, the latter of which I bolded and replied to.
 
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so if I want to go left, which way do I push on the bar? should I push on the outside of the right? or the inside of the left? what about slightly down at a 30 degree angle?
 
I understand he is asking about the tires, but the reason for the question is because he is confused about push steering, meaning that at this point he still doesn't understand how to push steer, the question about the tires is not relevant, hence why some of us were trying to help him understand push steering ignoring the stupid tire question because all it was is over thinking.

OK, I may be wrong here but my take is that he does understand countersteering now but is confused about what he's seeing in the video. Because to him it appears the video rider is pushing left to turn right. He wants to square that with what he's being told here. That's my understanding about the confusion.
 
OK, I may be wrong here but my take is that he does understand countersteering now but is confused about what he's seeing in the video. Because to him it appears the video rider is pushing left to turn right. He wants to square that with what he's being told here. That's my understanding about the confusion.

the video is off to the side, the perspective is skewed...
 
Plane on a conveyor belt. Does it fly or not?

600cc SS vs Honda Civic. Who wins the 1/4 mile drag race?

When travelling at speed of light what happens when you turn on the headlights?
 
Hint: The direction that the handlebars are moving, is not necessarily the same as the direction in which forces are being applied.

You cannot measure the forces that are being applied, using a video camera.
 
OK, I may be wrong here but my take is that he does understand countersteering now but is confused about what he's seeing in the video. Because to him it appears the video rider is pushing left to turn right. He wants to square that with what he's being told here. That's my understanding about the confusion.

+1, thread should be closed someone already pm'd me

the video is off to the side, the perspective is skewed...

Go and check other video's its not the video being skewed, theres some photos that show the same as well, I still don't think you understand my question.

/endthreadmods

Hint: The direction that the handlebars are moving, is not necessarily the same as the direction in which forces are being applied.
You cannot measure the forces that are being applied, using a video camera.


With the video camera you are able to see the forces being applied since the handlebars require force to be moved, the riders force or the force of the grounds is moving the handle bars the way it is. My question was why is he not push steering during the turn, but still taking the corner fine.
 
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If I want to hit a target, by throwing a ball, to make someone fall in a dunk tank at a fundraiser, do I throw the ball over hand or under hand?
 
If I want to hit a target, by throwing a ball, to make someone fall in a dunk tank at a fundraiser, do I throw the ball over hand or under hand?

Overhand works best, I find underhand throws lack accuracy. This only applies to males that are under 10 feet tall with blonde hair.
 
OK, I may be wrong here but my take is that he does understand countersteering now but is confused about what he's seeing in the video. Because to him it appears the video rider is pushing left to turn right. He wants to square that with what he's being told here. That's my understanding about the confusion.
That is correct and we all got his question, but this is a guy that just crashed a few days ago and that came on another thread asking for tips on how to ride.

So to me, I prefer to guide someone that is that inept on how to ride a bike on learning push Steering which judging from all his post in various other threads he has not managed yet, than to get him more confused about the physics of gyroscopic effects and torque reactions (quoting Bryan).

Do you think a 4 year old understands counter steering as a concept? no, but somehow they manage to ride a bike, this is why most of us ignored his irrelevant question and focused on making him understand push steering. he however misses the point and proceeds to insult people that are trying to help him out, that my friend is ignorance at its best.
 
+1, thread should be closed someone already pm'd me



Go and check other video's its not the video being skewed, theres some photos that show the same as well, I still don't think you understand my question.

/endthreadmods
counter-steering causes the bike to lean more. if you do "normal" steering while leaned over in a corner it will make the bike go upright quickly (like exiting a corner). maybe that is what you're seeing?
 
If I want to hit a target, by throwing a ball, to make someone fall in a dunk tank at a fundraiser, do I throw the ball over hand or under hand?

In order to truly know, you would have to first analyze several hours of youtube videos and use those videos to try to disprove fundamental laws of physics.

Rather then going outside and throwing a ball.
 
That is correct and we all got his question, but this is a guy that just crashed a few days ago and that came on another thread asking for tips on how to ride.

So to me, I prefer to guide someone that is that inept on how to ride a bike on learning push Steering which judging from all his post in various other threads he has not managed yet, than to get him more confused about the physics of gyroscopic effects and torque reactions (quoting Bryan).

Do you think a 4 year old understands counter steering as a concept? no, but somehow they manage to ride a bike, this is why most of us ignored his irrelevant question and focused on making him understand push steering. he however misses the point and proceeds to insult people that are trying to help him out, that my friend is ignorance at its best.

Im sorry but you're the only ignorant one here. Telling a basketball player how to play basketball when he asks how to play hockey is equivalent to what your'e doing here.

As stated in the original post the concept of push steering is quite clear, however what is not clear is the video portraying a rider NOT push steering. Hope that is simple enough for you.

counter-steering causes the bike to lean more. if you do "normal" steering while leaned over in a corner it will make the bike go upright quickly (like exiting a corner). maybe that is what you're seeing?

Possibly, but he turns the tire towards the turn throughout the whole turn and not just at the end of the turn.
 
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