He's not required to guess; he's required to protect the evidence.
|
|
|
Police have no right to arrest anyone for the simple act of taking a picture or vid
- Thread starter MarcosSantiago
- Start date
He's not required to guess; he's required to protect the evidence.
Ok, so let's say we're in a hypothetical situation where a couple of bad apples are beating up on an old lady because they can. I take out my cell phone and start filming. They tell me to stop. How can I protect myself from obstruction charges under the circumstances?
If they're bad apples, then you aren't likely to be able to stop them from arresting you. You do, however, have an avenue of defence. Being well away from the situation and merely recording in IS NOT obstruction. You are not in any way interfering with the officers' ability to perform their function.
No way would I record a cop from 52 division doing anything, legal or not. Those guys operate with impunity and lie for each other all the time.
This was so rampant at one time there was a hit song about it, "the Cherry Beach Express" by the Pukka Orchestra.
http://torontoist.com/2012/10/toronto-urban-legends-cherry-beach-express/
This was so rampant at one time there was a hit song about it, "the Cherry Beach Express" by the Pukka Orchestra.
http://torontoist.com/2012/10/toronto-urban-legends-cherry-beach-express/
Having said that, they will likely just lie and say you got in their way.
TP don't like to be governed, regulated, held responsible, and they refuse to allow anyone but police investigate their actions.
http://globalnews.ca/news/747060/18-year-old-identified-as-man-shot-by-police-on-ttc-street-car/
Very timely. They shot a kid with a knife three times, ...then found it necessary to shoot him 6 more times. Police will investigate these officers, nothing will happen, as with most SIU investigations. This video appeared because there were many witnesses, and videos, but I shudder to think if only one guy was around to make this video.
The point is: know the laws, but fear the police in the GTA. Most are ok, especially the younger ones, but after a while on the job, be careful.
axian_rider
Well-known member
Police have no right to arrest anyone for the simple act of taking a picture or
I'd just like to throw in my 0.02 here: on the first course of my paralegal course, the professor stated this: there is no justice in the system, neither is it called a justice system: it's called a legal system, where the cops and the judge get to "enforce", and construe the law. Now with that in mind, who do you think you'll have more chance: you, aka John Doe in the eye of judge, or the cop, otherwise known as the "law enforcer"?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I'd just like to throw in my 0.02 here: on the first course of my paralegal course, the professor stated this: there is no justice in the system, neither is it called a justice system: it's called a legal system, where the cops and the judge get to "enforce", and construe the law. Now with that in mind, who do you think you'll have more chance: you, aka John Doe in the eye of judge, or the cop, otherwise known as the "law enforcer"?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Precisely. There was a recent video of a fellow in Toronto who was in a hotel (lobby, I think?).
IIRC, the teenage son of a French family visiting Canada was causing a ruckus at the hotel. The cops came in and started raising hell, and were going to arrest the whole family or somesuch. A local started filming and was close to the cops but still quite clearly out of the way, the cop says to him multiple times "I'm cautioning you, you're in my way" before jumping the bystander as well. It was very obvious that the cop was going through the "I have to say these things before I beat this guy silly in front of witnesses" routine.
FiReSTaRT has a very relevant question. What do you do to protect yourself from the bad apples?
Never had the opportunity and hope I never do, but I'd look into direct streaming, so if "something happens" to the recording, it's out there on the interwebz
As I implied, above, you can't. All that you can do is damage control. You can, however, file official complaints if you see officers doing things that are clearly against The Charter. Lose the bad, keep the good.
redridernl
Well-known member
Police in Sweden handle being recorded a little differently...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ini_ylsuub0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ini_ylsuub0
MarcosSantiago
Well-known member
The Star is expanding now on the previous article:
"The videos of the (Sammy Yatim) shooting, taken by YouTubers “Marko G,” Martin Baron, and later, of the aftermath, by “CaplinGrey,” made it to social media without interference from police, perhaps because they were shot from a distance, in the shadows. But legal experts say that even if the videographers had been standing closer to the scene, they had every right to record those pictures without fear of confiscation of their cameras or intimidation by police."
Then, it goes on to say:
"The problem is that very often people are arrested for it, their cameras are taken away and then the charges are dismissed. So ‘obstructing justice’ is often used as an intimidation tactic. It’s a significant abuse of authority."
http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2..._fight_police_abuse_of_power_experts_say.html
"The videos of the (Sammy Yatim) shooting, taken by YouTubers “Marko G,” Martin Baron, and later, of the aftermath, by “CaplinGrey,” made it to social media without interference from police, perhaps because they were shot from a distance, in the shadows. But legal experts say that even if the videographers had been standing closer to the scene, they had every right to record those pictures without fear of confiscation of their cameras or intimidation by police."
Then, it goes on to say:
"The problem is that very often people are arrested for it, their cameras are taken away and then the charges are dismissed. So ‘obstructing justice’ is often used as an intimidation tactic. It’s a significant abuse of authority."
http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2..._fight_police_abuse_of_power_experts_say.html
I would say that given phones tend to have fairly wide angle lenses, the video that's depicted in the photo from that story is about as close as you could get without running afoul of the law. Any closer and you would be insinuating yourself into the situation, at which point police have every right to move you back. If you persisted, then you would be risking a valid obstruction charge. Police shouldn't have to be looking over their shoulders at the actions of the crowd, while dealing with a dangerous situation. Remember, at this point both sides had weapons drawn.
In a situation in which guns or other weapons are drawn, you don't want to be anywhere near it. If you're close enough that you're a distraction due to potential danger to yourself, and with a firearm that's a looooong way, then you are impeding the ability of law enforcement to perform.
I guess this brings us to the problem alluded to earlier with the incident in the hotel lobby. Its my view that the police ordered the photographer to back away simply to avoid being photographed. From the video evidence the photographer appears to be well clear of the arrest but is continuously ordered back, while, if memory serves, others who are not filmed are not given the same direction. The photographer is subsequently violently arrested.
TorontoBoy
Well-known member
This is exactly how it works. Rightly or wrongly, if police arrest me I expect to get the **** kicked out of me, irregardless of legality, and all cameras and media to be destroyed. It is all nice to say we have a law to protect us but without enforcement these laws are near useless.
The police have the power, the will and the knowledge to break the laws whenever and wherever they want. It is only when someone surreptitiously films them, without their knowledge, then posts it to Youtube, where it will be exposed to the world and copied, out of their reach, that they have no recourse because it is outside of their physical and legal reach.
There are so many numerous examples of police breaching the law they supposedly uphold. For anyone to hang onto the letter of the law and the Toronto Star article, no matter how legally correct, and they usually are, is in for a world of hurting. The precedent is certainly on the side of the police, not the public.
How many of the 1100 people detained at the Toronto G20 were charged and convicted? None. How many were beaten and otherwise roughed up? One guy with a fake leg was beaten because the police wrenched off his leg and then told him to stand up. These cases are very common.
I now have my GoPro mounted on the handlebars, (With a great RAM Mount). It used to be on my helmet until I was made aware of this.....
A recent traffic stop conducted by the Ontario Provincial Police (OPP) resulted in a motorcyclist being charged with an offence under the Highway Traffic Act.
On April 28, 2013 an officer from the City of Kawartha Lakes detachment of the OPP was on patrol on Kawartha Lakes Road 121 and observed a small group of motorcyclists. The officer observed that one of the riders had a Go Pro camera mounted on his helmet – illegal under the Highway Traffic Act (HTA).
As a result of the investigation Alexander PETICCA, 24 years of age, of Woodville, was charged with fail to wear proper helmet on motorcycle, contrary to the HTA.
“The OPP would like to remind motorcyclists that no protrusions over 5 mm are permitted on a motorcycle helmet. Also, helmets must meet the standards as set out in the Highway Traffic Act, which include DOT, CSA, BSA and the new Euro standards,” said PC Carrie Lanning.
So be smart and remove your GOPro mounts from the helmet. Now I am sure that not many officers even knew this to be the case, but rest assured, (from a former cop), that it will be included in "updates" sent to all officers once a conviction is registered.
A recent traffic stop conducted by the Ontario Provincial Police (OPP) resulted in a motorcyclist being charged with an offence under the Highway Traffic Act.
On April 28, 2013 an officer from the City of Kawartha Lakes detachment of the OPP was on patrol on Kawartha Lakes Road 121 and observed a small group of motorcyclists. The officer observed that one of the riders had a Go Pro camera mounted on his helmet – illegal under the Highway Traffic Act (HTA).
As a result of the investigation Alexander PETICCA, 24 years of age, of Woodville, was charged with fail to wear proper helmet on motorcycle, contrary to the HTA.
“The OPP would like to remind motorcyclists that no protrusions over 5 mm are permitted on a motorcycle helmet. Also, helmets must meet the standards as set out in the Highway Traffic Act, which include DOT, CSA, BSA and the new Euro standards,” said PC Carrie Lanning.
So be smart and remove your GOPro mounts from the helmet. Now I am sure that not many officers even knew this to be the case, but rest assured, (from a former cop), that it will be included in "updates" sent to all officers once a conviction is registered.
Police have no right to arrest anyone for the simple act of taking a picture or
I have been increasingly interested in one of these but it is a real shame about the helmet because our necks to a certain extent help cancel vibration. If it is hard mounted to the chassis I would imagine the video would have more blur.
Maybe a chest mounted harness instead if even feasible?
Also, 5mm? Really? Does this mean helmets with flip ups are now illegal? My helmet has snaps on it for a face shield and those snaps protrude more than 5mm..
I have been increasingly interested in one of these but it is a real shame about the helmet because our necks to a certain extent help cancel vibration. If it is hard mounted to the chassis I would imagine the video would have more blur.
Maybe a chest mounted harness instead if even feasible?
Also, 5mm? Really? Does this mean helmets with flip ups are now illegal? My helmet has snaps on it for a face shield and those snaps protrude more than 5mm..
Re: Police have no right to arrest anyone for the simple act of taking a picture or
The RAM Mount for the handle bars have rubberized coatings on the "balls" of the mounts to reduce vibration I get no noticeable vibration on my Yamaha Roadstar 1700. Haven't tried it on the GF's sport bike..lol
As for the "flip ups and the snaps for visors etc" they ARE part of the helmet and it's design so I doubt they could render the helmet, an "improper helmet" I am sure if one got charged they could win easily in court. Just as a friend of mine recently got a rookie cop, looking to make a name for himself and he charged him with not wearing in his seatbelt in his vintage car that was never equiped with shoulder belts. He took it to court along with supporting owners manual and photos of the vehicle the crown withdrew the charge..lol
The RAM Mount for the handle bars have rubberized coatings on the "balls" of the mounts to reduce vibration I get no noticeable vibration on my Yamaha Roadstar 1700. Haven't tried it on the GF's sport bike..lol
As for the "flip ups and the snaps for visors etc" they ARE part of the helmet and it's design so I doubt they could render the helmet, an "improper helmet" I am sure if one got charged they could win easily in court. Just as a friend of mine recently got a rookie cop, looking to make a name for himself and he charged him with not wearing in his seatbelt in his vintage car that was never equiped with shoulder belts. He took it to court along with supporting owners manual and photos of the vehicle the crown withdrew the charge..lol
|
|
|
|
|