PCV vs. Bazzaz ???

That's what I was getting at... tuning at partial throttle is a dark art. Tuning for full throttle is relatively easy.

There's tip-in, timing, fuel, sudden port velocity changes, cam wash, dynamic exhaust backpressure, varying loads at stable rpm, etc. etc. to deal with. WOT is fairly linear in most respects, much simpler.

That's why you pay tuners to do it right. And that's why big motor companies throw millions of dollars at the problem for every motor.

BTW, the auto-tuning system that I have on my street Suzuki, installed by Scott Miller, works pretty great. I'm not sure how it works entirely but it involves a wideband sensor and probably works largely because it's a full Evo2 exhaust system. I think Donovan (reciprocity) built it. My only complaint is that every time I go WOT for the first time in a while, it's a bit soft then comes on with a bang (at around 180whp, it's a big bang) after I row a few gears. It's amusing having it pull well in 2nd, pull hard in third and then shake the bars like an angry pitbull in 4th as it re-learns the mapping.
 
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Basically: 02 sensor reads the AFR in the mid pipe, sends it to the AT unit and Main Unit and tries to change fuel mixtures so that what the 02 sensor is reading matches what is outlined in the AFR table in the AT unit and makes changes to the trim table in the main unit to adjust. confused yet? it's a fuel management three-way.

If you want an effective tune, you can have a totally unique AFR and Fuel Trim table for each independent gear.

Because you're going WOT from constant cruising, the delay is coming from the 02 band and PC/Bazazz unit trying to adapt to the sudden change in throttle position, Air/Fuel Ratio, gear and speed. If you're constantly WOT like I am, you wouldn't notice that.

It was used to riding a certain way for a while, and if you suddenly change it needs time to make the appropriate changes to fuel trims. Some changes to the AFR or Fuel table could fix that to a reasonable degree, but a map for each gear would be best.
 
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Mr.Azim said:
If you want an effective tune, you can have a totally unique AFR and Fuel Trim table for each independent gear.
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I do that for every bike I install it on :)

-Jamie M.
 
Same dilemma, 2006 GSXR 600, full exhaust and may add an aftermarket air filter.

Bazzaz or ECU Flash Tune?
The only advantage I see of having the Bazzaz is the TC, but the flash tune offers more.
Thoughts? Experiences?

Thanks in advance.
 
Mina said:
Same dilemma, 2006 GSXR 600, full exhaust and may add an aftermarket air filter.

Bazzaz or ECU Flash Tune?
The only advantage I see of having the Bazzaz is the TC, but the flash tune offers more.
Thoughts? Experiences?

Thanks in advance.
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Bazzaz if you want TC (I liked it) and have the $. Power commander is apparently easier to tune on the Dyno. Auto tune isn't all it's cracked up to be, after seeing what my A/F map looked like from the auto tune I won't be using it on my new bike. If your wanting to remove restrictions (not aware of what's exactly on the Gsxr) the bazzaz isn't going to do it.
 
Mina said:
Same dilemma, 2006 GSXR 600, full exhaust and may add an aftermarket air filter.

Bazzaz or ECU Flash Tune?
The only advantage I see of having the Bazzaz is the TC, but the flash tune offers more.
Thoughts? Experiences?

Thanks in advance.
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If you're looking for TC or AFM (autotune) then Bazzaz is your best bet. Don't forget you can still get the ECU flashed (to remove the restrictions and increase ignition timing) and still rock the Bazzaz so they can tune it on the dyno (not sure where you're located but Champion Cycle dyno tunes all my flashed bikes). ECU flash + bazzaz + dyno tune = pure awesome.

http://www.flash-tune.com/?wpsc_product_category=2006-2007-gsxr600

Is this a track only bike, or street as well?
 
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Think of it this way: Bazzaz has something like 16 connections. If something goes wrong with it you're gonna have a hell of a time diagnosing it. Just throw a pcv on it. 600's don't need traction control anyway.
 
dricked said:
Bazzaz if you want TC (I liked it) and have the $. Power commander is apparently easier to tune on the Dyno. Auto tune isn't all it's cracked up to be, after seeing what my A/F map looked like from the auto tune I won't be using it on my new bike. If your wanting to remove restrictions (not aware of what's exactly on the Gsxr) the bazzaz isn't going to do it.
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Don't think there are any restrictions on the gsxr. Had mine flashed just to get rid of the engine light from the secondary throttle removal. Ask Jamie, he'd know.
 
Benny! said:
Think of it this way: Bazzaz has something like 16 connections. If something goes wrong with it you're gonna have a hell of a time diagnosing it. Just throw a pcv on it. 600's don't need traction control anyway.
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Thats because it controlls the upper and lower injectors, aside from those 4 extra connections one goes to your crank sensor and the rest of it is the same as a PC. You don't trouble shoot these systems, you remove them entirely and/or contact the mfg.

You don't need TC on any bike but depending on your pace it can be valuble tool.
 
dricked said:
Thats because it controlls the upper and lower injectors, aside from those 4 extra connections one goes to your crank sensor and the rest of it is the same as a PC. You don't trouble shoot these systems, you remove them entirely and/or contact the mfg.
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Just FYI to some people reading this, Yamaha (at least R1 and R6) can set a "lock ECU code" for injector failures (code 39 and/or code 40). This causes the ECU to go into lockdown mode until it's reset by a dealer (or re-flashed with equipment like flash-tune, requires a specific ECU reset file from the flash provider). I've seen a few R1 and R6 bikes go into limp mode after their Bazzaz unit freaked out and required a flash to get them to run properly (even after totally removing the Bazzaz and re-connecting like stock and even clearing the trouble code in diag mode didn't fix it!).

I'm sure the same thing could theoretically happen with Power Commander, but so far the only bikes I've seen with the problem have all had Bazzaz.
 
I really wish I could put a Bazzaz on my bike (2003 gsxr 1000), mainly for the traction control and secondly for the quickshifter. Unfortunately they don't make them for 2003/2004, so I wonder how exactly does the TC operate? I can think of possible design that relies on two data points: speed at the crank and speed at the rear wheel + ability to cut the spark (maybe that doesn't make sense at all?!). Is that how it works? Don't know why I got this bug about the TC, but I really want it, and wonder if it's possible to retrofit..
 
I had it on my 08 Gsxr 1000 and never relied on it, I wasn't even sure it worked until I hooked up the light that indicated it was active. Spend your money and efforts on getting a quick shifter before worrying about TC, it's nice to have but not necessary to go fast.

No idea about retrofitting it but go to the bazzaz website for an explanation on how it works and you could try contacting them to see if it's possible to fit it to your bike.
 
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dricked said:
I had it on my 08 Gsxr 1000 and never relied on it, I wasn't even sure it worked until I hooked up the light that indicated it was active. Spend your money and efforts on getting a quick shifter before worrying about TC, it's nice to have but not necessary to go fast.

No idea about retrofitting it but go to the bazzaz website for an explanation on how it works and you could try contacting them to see if it's possible to fit it to your bike.
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Thanks, just sent them an email to ask. It's interesting it just relies on detecting sudden changes to the RPM, and then cuts of the spark. Regarding your experience with it, could it be possible it wasn't set up to the correct sensitivity and cut level? I hear if it's setup correctly, you should be able to keep wide open throttle at max lean angle and be fine on the litre bike.
 
It's a mental thing to hold a built 1000 wide open and hope your TC works. It was definatly working but I didn't feel the need to rely on it and it won't save you from putting yourself into orbit. Again plenty of people go very fast without it and I wouldn't get too hung up on this being a need item. I trusted it more on the 600 because if somthing went wrong it was only a 110hp problem as opposed to a 175hp problem.
 
Shaman said:
That's great, but what does it do for partial throttle at low rpms? That's where my friends have had trouble.
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I do my tuning using a plain ordinary air/fuel gauge, and manually changing what needs to be changed.

The displayed air/fuel ratio is not stable at tiny throttle position. There is not enough resolution in the PowerCommander map to deal with this, and the interpolation stinks ... you can cruise at something like 80 km/h on 2% throttle with a ZX10R, and ride around town without even registering any throttle position at all. What it means is that if you were to try to use autotune in those conditions, it wouldn't be able to distinguish between 50 km/h cruise and 50 km/h gentle acceleration and 50 km/h shut throttle coasting, because it all looks like 0% throttle. No wonder the autotune systems have trouble in this area.

My self-made map is a little rich with shut throttle and a little lean at city-traffic cruise. Can't fix it because they're both in the same 0% cell on the PowerCommander map. It's close enough that neither the rich nor the lean condition causes any driveability issue whatsoever. Manually, I can make that judgment call. Autotune might not be too happy about it.
 
Brian P said:
Autotune might not be too happy about it.
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I can tell you, my buddy's CBR sounded like a diesel truck with autotune when he was riding around the city. Dynojet (et al) should be more clear about expectations with this product, I think.
 
dricked said:
It's a mental thing to hold a built 1000 wide open and hope your TC works. It was definatly working but I didn't feel the need to rely on it and it won't save you from putting yourself into orbit. Again plenty of people go very fast without it and I wouldn't get too hung up on this being a need item. I trusted it more on the 600 because if somthing went wrong it was only a 110hp problem as opposed to a 175hp problem.
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There is a bit of an error with this.

With superbikes, you have a MUCH larger margin of error in terms of wheelspin, if it happens you can catch it and modulate the spin,, if you roll off slightly, the large torque of the 1000 will still maintain some level of wheelspin, you can still easily get it wrong, but the big bike is much more forgiving

With a 600, you have MAYBE 1500 RPM range where you can modulate wheelspin,, if you spin the motor above this, power starts to fall off(and you'll eventually get into the rev limiter) if you dip blow, you get out of the small torque peak these bikes have,, either will result in the rear wheel regaining traction and the eject button will promptly be pressed..
 
Keep it simple grab two power commanders bring it to a well known tuner in your area and tell them what each bike is going to be doing.(track or street) You are going to spend hours upon hours making adjustments with the Bazzaz auto tune. For people to say that Bazzaz units are the only ones that have issues is pure b.s any electronic piggy back to the ecu can have potential issues but that's the chance you take putting these things on. Do you really need a quick shifter and tc? no you don't need it. Do you want it because its cool? yes
 
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