Paris Attack | GTAMotorcycle.com

Paris Attack

First thing this attack reminded me of was our own Prime Minister threatening to take a gun to Frank magazine headquarters, 1991. Say stuff about other people at your own peril, freedom of speech is often abused.
 
inreb said:
First thing this attack reminded me of was our own Prime Minister threatening to take a gun to Frank magazine headquarters, 1991. Say stuff about other people at your own peril, freedom of speech is often abused.
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Agreed. While nothing can excuse or justify this violence, I take issue with the smug air of self-righteousness adopted by those defending the cartoons. Vile mockery of an entire religion is not journalism and just because one has the "right" to offend a billion people based on the actions of a relative few it doesn't mean one should.
 
CanadianBiker said:
Agreed. While nothing can excuse or justify this violence, I take issue with the smug air of self-righteousness adopted by those defending the cartoons. Vile mockery of an entire religion is not journalism and just because one has the "right" to offend a billion people based on the actions of a relative few it doesn't mean one should.
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You guys sounds like Anjem Choudary. Ideas exist in a market place that includes religious ones. Criticism of said ideas is a vital part of this market places and Critisim includes Mocking and in the past has been instrumental in changing religious institutions . Ridiculous ideas deserve to be ridiculed the ideals of extremist islam that include that one does not even have the right to visually depict the Phrophet and punishment for this is death thats what was being mocked and its still important that this idea of thought crime is mocked.

Plenty of Muslims were offended by the Habo stuff and you know what they did they exercised their freedom and didn't purchase the magazine or some even wrote letters. Thats how a healthy society. Everyone knows free speech isn't consequence free speech and the writers of charlie knew that this was a very possible outcome but ridicule of those that want to impose bronze age punishments for minor transgressions is important and needs to continue.

Je Suis charlie
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Two50noob said:
... and its still important that this idea of thought crime is mocked....
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So in that same vein, the Dalhousie dentistry students who posted violent fantasies about their classmates should be not only excused but embraced by proponents of free speech everywhere.
 
CanadianBiker said:
So in that same vein, the Dalhousie dentistry students who posted violent fantasies about their classmates should be not only excused but embraced by proponents of free speech everywhere.
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They havn't been arrested or stopped or killed they could continue to post them. However they did it while in membership of institution that forbids it. Free speech isn't consequence free speach
 
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Two50noob said:
They havn't been arrested or stopped or killed they could continue to post them. However they did it while in membership of institution that forbids it. Free speech isn't consequence free speach
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Which is why I said nothing excuses the violence.
The students were stopped, by the way, and their future careers forfeited, for simply posting ideas, however repugnant.
I can't see how on the one hand being deliberately offensive in as crude as manner as possible to an entire religion can be defended while at the same time calling for the heads of those students.
 
CanadianBiker said:
Which is why I said nothing excuses the violence.
The students were stopped, by the way, and their future careers forfeited, for simply posting ideas, however repugnant.
I can't see how on the one hand being deliberately offensive in as crude as manner as possible to an entire religion can be defended while at the same time calling for the heads of those students.
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Like i said Free speech isn't consequence free speach. Try exercising total free speech at work you will be fired and it would not be a violation of your freedom of speech.
The repercussions on the students arn't a violation of free speech either. As all of them are still free to continue to do it and i would support their right to do that.

Its like if i post something on this forum thats against the rules. Me being Banned or the post being deleted isnt a violation.
 
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Two50noob said:
Like i said Free speech isn't consequence free speach. Try exercising total free speech at work you will be fired and it would not be a violation of your freedom of speech.
The repercussions on the students arn't a violation of free speech either. As all of them are still free to continue to do it and i would support their right to do that.

Its like if i post something on this forum thats against the rules. Me being Banned or the post being deleted isnt a violation.
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Free speech should be exactly that, free of consequence. As soon as restrictions are placed on what can be said and where, it's no longer free.
Going back to the original point I was trying to make (my failure if it wasn't clear, not the readers'), while I support exposing falsehoods in any institution and legitimately questioning anything and everything, I fail to grasp how belittling, insulting, and mocking accomplishes any of that. And then to claim the high ground and declare it "journalism" when something horrific but predictable happens.
 
CanadianBiker said:
Free speech should be exactly that, free of consequence. As soon as restrictions are placed on what can be said and where, it's no longer free.
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That cant practically work and i guarantee you don't mean it. You would not support me posting your name and address and the falsehood that you raped and Murderd a child on an anti pedophie website or pictures of your kids to a pro-pedophile site. Hell child porn could even be considered fair games under that.

Private institutions have the right to name their own terms and conditions the reasonableness of these can be discussed and debated however.

And satirical mocking of any idea is and will continue to be a key driver in promoting change it. A Modest Proposal being probably the best example of this
 
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Two50noob said:
That cant practically work and i guarantee you don't mean it. You would not support me posting your name and address and the falsehood that you raped and Murderd a child on an anti pedophie website or pictures of your kids to a pro-pedophile site. Hell child porn could even be considered fair games under that.

Private institutions have the right to name their own terms and conditions the reasonableness of these can be discussed and debated however.

And satirical mocking of any idea is and will continue to be a key driver in promoting change it. A Modest Proposal being probably the best example of this
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I certainly do mean it, but I don't support it. And that's what I'm driving at.
Condemning the attacks as an assault on free speech in journalism is disingenuous. The "speech" in question was inflammatory and deliberately designed to insult a huge number of people, the vast majority of which did nothing to provoke it. If a journal had published cartoons attacking women, gays, people of colour in the same vile tone, imagine how quickly other journalists would pillory them. But religion has become fair game, for some reason.
Thoughtful investigation and debate has been replaced by cheap mockery and insult. I don't see the value, other than a brief moment of smug triumph for the perpetrators. It changes nothing and only further polarizes people.
I suspect we could go back and forth about this for quite a while. I can't devote the time but I do appreciate your civility in the discussion.
Cheers.
 
Comparing rape jokes getting people suspended from school to political cartoonists being murdered. Another GTAM gem.
 
Free speech, religion and offensive cartoons are not even close to being the sole issues here. Disenfranchised French Arabs have been an issue for decades. They get treated like second-rate citizens, like blacks are in many US States.

People are building a skewed narrative based on a bunch of disconnected world events. Can't really blame them, but there's a lot more going on here.

For the record I'm absolutely appalled by the killings. Senseless act.
 
CanadianBiker said:
I certainly do mean it, but I don't support it. And that's what I'm driving at.
Condemning the attacks as an assault on free speech in journalism is disingenuous. The "speech" in question was inflammatory and deliberately designed to insult a huge number of people, the vast majority of which did nothing to provoke it. If a journal had published cartoons attacking women, gays, people of colour in the same vile tone, imagine how quickly other journalists would pillory them. But religion has become fair game, for some reason.
Thoughtful investigation and debate has been replaced by cheap mockery and insult. I don't see the value, other than a brief moment of smug triumph for the perpetrators. It changes nothing and only further polarizes people.
I suspect we could go back and forth about this for quite a while. I can't devote the time but I do appreciate your civility in the discussion.
Cheers.
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Its is an attack of free speech thats exactly that it was supposed to be because to quote Anjem Choudary in his article know the consequences "Therefore, Muslims do not believe in the concept of freedom of expression" of course Anjem is an extremist and definitely does not speak for the majority of western muslims.

But once again your and confusing the responce to an expressions to censorship of that expression. If a Journal published something anti - women, gays, people of colour and people write counter arguments, protest, call for a Boycot or any other action.. so what thats not a censorship thats not violation of free speech that is infact itself an expression of free speach. Its only becomes a violation if the Government steps in throws the writer in jail, bans publication or if someone then murders someone for writing something they didn't like.

Religion has been fair game for mocker since its been around often the ones that mock it are adherents to other religions. Mockery is an important component in criticism and relgion is an idea and ideas need to be critiqued there is still plenty of scholarly debate happening!

And to your point Matt yes spot on its the disenfranchisement thats causing these people to turn to the extremism.

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This is Piss christ "photograph is of a small plastic crucifix submerged in what appears to be a yellow liquid. The artist has described the substance as being his own urine in a glass.

Deeply offensive art to some that was even helped by national grants. People called for Boycots people got mad protested... the government didn't destroy it the artist wasn't murdered and act of freedom of expression was just met with more acts of freedom of expression. welcome to the free market places of ideas.

Accurately tell a lie there was some attempts to and a successful one in 2011

"Catholic Archbishop of Melbourne, George Pell, sought an injunction from the Supreme Court of Victoria to restrain the National Gallery of Victoria from publicly displaying Piss Christ, which was not granted. Some days later, one patron attempted to remove the work from the gallery wall, and two teenagers later attacked it with a hammer"

On April 17, 2011, a print of Piss Christ was vandalized "beyond repair" by Christian protesters while on display during the Je crois aux miracles (I believe in miracles) exhibition at the Collection Lambert, a contemporary art museum in Avignon, France.[SUP][18][/SUP][SUP][19][/SUP] Serrano's photo The Church was similarly vandalized in the attack.
 
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Two50noob :cheers:

Canadian biker X
 
Schneller said:
Two50noob :cheers:

Canadian biker X
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Un-freaking-believable... there is actually a topic that I agree with Schneller and Two50noob on... I must be running a fever.
 
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