Ontario's new electric vehicle incentives

[Brian P]

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I hate the "MPGe" that someone came up with. Gasoline and electricity may both contain energy but they are not equivalent. If you make an assumption that you are starting with a fossil fuel then those two containers of energy are a number of conversions apart to get from one to the other. Electricity is a "higher grade" form of energy than a fossil fuel is.

It makes a whole lot more sense to use kWh / 100 km or km / kWh as those are directly related to what you are paying for in order to "fill up".

The upcoming Chevrolet Bolt with its approximately 60 kWh pack, at 10 cents / off-peak kWh, will cost $6 to "fill up" and you will supposedly be able to do something over 300 km on that. A comparable gasoline engine vehicle (Chevrolet Trax) would probably use about 7 L/100 km = 21 litres to go that distance and cost (today) about $19.

There are places where it could cost more to feed an electric than to drive an equivalent gasoline vehicle, especially if you are recharging during peak demand times.

 

[mxs]

I'm not going to do the math, because I had a long day and it'll make my brain hurt, but here's something to chew on. Nissan Leaf - extrapolated (EV to MPG conversion) combined MPG (mix of city and highway) = 114MPG. 126MPG on the highway.

Jetta diesel, the "everyone loves to compare against it" MPG king, slightly less than 50MPG on the highway, average about 30 in the city.

So, the tired "but hydro is going to go up!" argument falls flat.

And I don't buy the "maintenance still costs money" argument either. Gas, diesel, electric...whatever...they're all still going to require maintenance. There's an argument to be made that you're actually saving somewhat in that regard since you're not doing oil changes 4-6 times per year at $30-$50 a pop.

And theft based on copper value? That's grasping at straws. There are far easier targets for (almost always smalltime) copper thieves vs an EV that they're going to have to chainsaw apart to get a moderately token amount of copper in the end compared to the effort.

People should only compare electric to electric, anything else is just a trickery and bag of assumptions. Really pointless .... Only someone clueless like EPA can try do that, trying to introduce MPG for electric vehicles .... Size of battery, how many miles to a full charge in city, hwy and give it to me in summer and winter. They can keep their MPG ....

 

[mxs]

I hate the "MPGe" that someone came up with. Gasoline and electricity may both contain energy but they are not equivalent. If you make an assumption that you are starting with a fossil fuel then those two containers of energy are a number of conversions apart to get from one to the other. Electricity is a "higher grade" form of energy than a fossil fuel is.

It makes a whole lot more sense to use kWh / 100 km or km / kWh as those are directly related to what you are paying for in order to "fill up".

The upcoming Chevrolet Bolt with its approximately 60 kWh pack, at 10 cents / off-peak kWh, will cost $6 to "fill up" and you will supposedly be able to do something over 300 km on that. A comparable gasoline engine vehicle (Chevrolet Trax) would probably use about 7 L/100 km = 21 litres to go that distance and cost (today) about $19.

There are places where it could cost more to feed an electric than to drive an equivalent gasoline vehicle, especially if you are recharging during peak demand times.

Thank you sir, you obviously beat me to it ... LOL

 

[PrivatePilot]

I would agree that purely from a money saving aspect EV's still are a tough buy. You have to drive a lot, and you have to do the sort of driving that lends itself to being on electricity ALL the time (in the case of a pure electric like a Leaf), or MOST of the time in the case of a true range extended electric like a Volt. Hybrids like the Prius muddy the water as they are neither full electric nor a "pure" range extended EV like the Volt.

But, if you're going to spend $50-70K on a vehicle anyways there IS an argument to be made that if you can get a Tesla vs the alternative (and face it, there's no shortage of entry level luxury cars in the $50K range, and if you've ever sat in one you'd have to admit that the Tesla beats many of them in the luxury part), there IS an argument to be made for going with the EV and enjoying the savings afterwards.

If all you want is an A to B beater for 90% short haul and had no intention to ever buy something sorta luxurious anyways, buy a $10K shitbox and put gas in it - the savings from an EV will never pay the difference in the average lifespan of most cars.

The fact that the MSRP on a Nissan Leaf however has a base MSRP of $32K, and is probably eligible for the whole $10K rebate (and IIRC, some other federal rebates stack on top of that) muddies the water a little now though. You could very well get into a pure EV that is suitable for around-the-town use for around $20K. Yes, still twice the aforementioned **** boxes, but if you're saving $2000/year on gas (Using $50/week as an average = $2600, and comparable electricity in the $600 range) the math starts to turn around in year 5 of ownership. And you have that smug "Go F yourself, oil companies" appeal every time you plug it in to factor into that as well.

 

[PrivatePilot]

I hate the "MPGe" that someone came up with.

There are places where it could cost more to feed an electric than to drive an equivalent gasoline vehicle, especially if you are recharging during peak demand times.

Fair argument, and yes, the MPGe is foggy, but when you crunch the numbers EV's still almost always win.

Add in the ability to charge elsewhere...like at work (Yes, a very real option for me and many others) and if over an 8 hour shift, at even the low-powered 120V charge rate (vs the high speed 220v home chargers) you can pickup enough juice to basically make your commute to and from work zero cost, the numbers get even more interesting.

A lot of employers are embracing EV's and are allowing this sort of thing. My wife works for a massive multinational company and I'm confident that given their environmental policies, if she approached them about an EV incentive that would allow employees that bought one to charge at work...they'd be all over it like white on rice.

I suppose in 10 or 20 years when a huge number of people might be taking up companies on that offer, thereby driving their hydro bills through the roof, that willingness might change, but that's another story.

In the end, for the "average" person who drives within the range of an EV (and that range is getting bigger and bigger), and works days (as many/most do) so they can charge at night and take advantage of off-peak hydro rates, the numbers are still very VERY favourable.

 

[mxs]

I hate the "MPGe" that someone came up with. Gasoline and electricity may both contain energy but they are not equivalent. If you make an assumption that you are starting with a fossil fuel then those two containers of energy are a number of conversions apart to get from one to the other. Electricity is a "higher grade" form of energy than a fossil fuel is.

It makes a whole lot more sense to use kWh / 100 km or km / kWh as those are directly related to what you are paying for in order to "fill up".

The upcoming Chevrolet Bolt with its approximately 60 kWh pack, at 10 cents / off-peak kWh, will cost $6 to "fill up" and you will supposedly be able to do something over 300 km on that. A comparable gasoline engine vehicle (Chevrolet Trax) would probably use about 7 L/100 km = 21 litres to go that distance and cost (today) about $19.

There are places where it could cost more to feed an electric than to drive an equivalent gasoline vehicle, especially if you are recharging during peak demand times.

I am still very suspicious of how something like Bolt will perform in today's winter day. I expect that with my kind of right foot te mileage will be half per charge, so I will be getting very close to my ICE car as far as running costs and that assumes I charge at home overnight only. But a good trade-off for 5s 0-100km/h .... LOL .... Call it a traffic light silent killer. The bikes better start being careful who they mess with ...

 

[mxs]

I would agree that purely from a money saving aspect EV's still are a tough buy. You have to drive a lot, and you have to do the sort of driving that lends itself to being on electricity ALL the time (in the case of a pure electric like a Leaf), or MOST of the time in the case of a true range extended electric like a Volt. Hybrids like the Prius muddy the water as they are neither full electric nor a "pure" range extended EV like the Volt.

But, if you're going to spend $50-70K on a vehicle anyways there IS an argument to be made that if you can get a Tesla vs the alternative (and face it, there's no shortage of entry level luxury cars in the $50K range, and if you've ever sat in one you'd have to admit that the Tesla beats many of them in the luxury part), there IS an argument to be made for going with the EV and enjoying the savings afterwards.

If all you want is an A to B beater for 90% short haul and had no intention to ever buy something sorta luxurious anyways, buy a $10K shitbox and put gas in it - the savings from an EV will never pay the difference in the average lifespan of most cars.

The fact that the MSRP on a Nissan Leaf however has a base MSRP of $32K, and is probably eligible for the whole $10K rebate (and IIRC, some other federal rebates stack on top of that) muddies the water a little now though. You could very well get into a pure EV that is suitable for around-the-town use for around $20K. Yes, still twice the aforementioned **** boxes, but if you're saving $2000/year on gas (Using $50/week as an average = $2600, and comparable electricity in the $600 range) the math starts to turn around in year 5 of ownership. And you have that smug "Go F yourself, oil companies" appeal every time you plug it in to factor into that as well.

The problem is people like me will never spend more than 35k on a car, but I also would never buy voluntarily Leaf, Prius ... etc. I just cannot drive box on 4 wheels with steering wheel two year old can turn with one finger. I have no clue what to expect of the Bolt .... I also know that nothing Tesla will make will be very good, but sadly out of ange I am willing to drop on a new car. Probably leaves me with used market and tat opens a whole new pandora box called used battery ... Maybe used model 3 with factory battery replacement. Not an easy choice obviously ...

 

[mxs]

I would agree that purely from a money saving aspect EV's still are a tough buy. You have to drive a lot, and you have to do the sort of driving that lends itself to being on electricity ALL the time (in the case of a pure electric like a Leaf), or MOST of the time in the case of a true range extended electric like a Volt. Hybrids like the Prius muddy the water as they are neither full electric nor a "pure" range extended EV like the Volt.

But, if you're going to spend $50-70K on a vehicle anyways there IS an argument to be made that if you can get a Tesla vs the alternative (and face it, there's no shortage of entry level luxury cars in the $50K range, and if you've ever sat in one you'd have to admit that the Tesla beats many of them in the luxury part), there IS an argument to be made for going with the EV and enjoying the savings afterwards.

If all you want is an A to B beater for 90% short haul and had no intention to ever buy something sorta luxurious anyways, buy a $10K shitbox and put gas in it - the savings from an EV will never pay the difference in the average lifespan of most cars.

The fact that the MSRP on a Nissan Leaf however has a base MSRP of $32K, and is probably eligible for the whole $10K rebate (and IIRC, some other federal rebates stack on top of that) muddies the water a little now though. You could very well get into a pure EV that is suitable for around-the-town use for around $20K. Yes, still twice the aforementioned **** boxes, but if you're saving $2000/year on gas (Using $50/week as an average = $2600, and comparable electricity in the $600 range) the math starts to turn around in year 5 of ownership. And you have that smug "Go F yourself, oil companies" appeal every time you plug it in to factor into that as well.

The problem is people like me will never spend more than 35k on a car, but I also would never buy voluntarily Leaf, Prius ... etc. I just cannot drive box on 4 wheels with steering wheel two year old can turn with one finger. I have no clue what to expect of the Bolt .... I also know that nothing Tesla will make will be very good, but sadly out of ange I am willing to drop on a new car. Probably leaves me with used market and tat opens a whole new pandora box called used battery ... Maybe used model 3 with factory battery replacement. Not an easy choice obviously ...

 

[LPakkala]

I was just on Zero Motorcycles site today to have a look around. Some models cost $24,000 CAN with the optional larger battery or whatever they are calling it. Given that their market share here in Canada is hovering around 0%, it would be worth their time to jump through the hoops to be able to offer buyers the credits. Even at $8000 off you're still looking at a motorcycle with 50-67hp (equivalent) for $16,000. Still a pricey ride given the best range is 317km (city) and around 200km (hwy, which they classify as 89km/h) but there might be some tech lovers and tree huggers who would bite at that price.

Interestingly, charge times for the bikes with the extra battery pack are 10.8hrs via a regular plug and down around 2-3hrs if you have their fancy charger system installed in your garage. Apparently if you do the conversion, the bikes with the extra battery pack get equivalent of 240ish mpg and cost $1.78 to "fill up". The technology will soon be real world practical.

As of right now there is significantly smaller market for electric bikes compared to gas powered. Especially in Canada. And Zero pretty much controls it all, since they have had road going electric motorcycles for more than 5 years. Everyone else is trying to catch up. As a business, there are not enough serious potential buyers in our market (Southern Ontario specifically) to justify the amount of work to get the special designation. It wouldn't increase sales enough here to pay for the effort to get the designation. Personally I think that's a mistake, but facts are what they are.

In real world terms, I was able to ride 40 km's at "normal" highway speeds like a "normal" Southern Ontario rider and used up between 40 and 60% of the battery on a 2014 Zero S. This was in full sport mode never dropping below 115 km/h on the highway with a few instances above that number. Riding like I did, with no thought to babying the batteries for range, I could get between 140 and 160 kms per charge. In most cases this will not be enough for a weekend warrior, myself included. I like cottage runs, and this doesn't have the speed/range abilities yet. But as a commuter (as it was intended), wow was it ever nice. Cost next to nothing to run as I charged at both ends of the commute (out of habit more than necessity).

 

[PrivatePilot]

I'm curious how much the insurance is for an experienced over 30 rider on a Zero- are they lumped in with the sport bikes, or the cruisers? Or some special category in between?

 

[LPakkala]

I'm curious how much the insurance is for an experienced over 30 rider on a Zero- are they lumped in with the sport bikes, or the cruisers? Or some special category in between?

They have their own category that varies from company to company. Generally the insurance rates we have seen have been less than the norm.

 

[LePhillou]

They have their own category that varies from company to company. Generally the insurance rates we have seen have been less than the norm.

Obviously cause there are almost none on the streets.

 

[Furpo]

Electric vehicle purchase subsidized by taxpayer? Wow. Do they come with subsidized baby seats for the subsidized career social assistance mom?

You realise we already subsidise oil to the tune of $3.6 billion? Personally, I would rather subsidise electric cars. And children, for that matter. I would be happy to subsidise electric motorcycles.

 

[Brian P]

Obviously cause there are almost none on the streets.

And you can't go very far.

 

[inreb]

You realise we already subsidise oil to the tune of $3.6 billion? Personally, I would rather subsidise electric cars. And children, for that matter. I would be happy to subsidise electric motorcycles.

You realize the tax code is seriously messed up?

 

[mxs]

And you can't go very far.

Exactly. It will be a while before you see a decent range in motorcycle size format. It's quite a different challenge than placing a battery of certain weight and volume into a car chassis.

I can see offload bikes running on a closed track with a swap style battery. Sort like KTM free ride .... But it has not really caught on sinc they came out. Pure toy will always have it much tougher than a commuter car ....

 

[LePhillou]

Exactly. It will be a while before you see a decent range in motorcycle size format. It's quite a different challenge than placing a battery of certain weight and volume into a car chassis.

I can see offload bikes running on a closed track with a swap style battery. Sort like KTM free ride .... But it has not really caught on sinc they came out. Pure toy will always have it much tougher than a commuter car ....

Except if you use it as a commuter bike. Then most of them can satisfy the range requirement you're looking for ..now theres the thing about cost lol

 

[Concac]

The wealthy buying expensive electric cars get a fat rebate, most of the time it is just added to a gas guzzling stable. The poor buying cheap economy gas powered cars (all they can afford) get to pay for the rebate for the wealthy.

I get the idea of helping them get more to market but it is just wrong headed thinking. Maybe the rebate should only happen if someone goes 100% zero emission, that means no Ferrari or Escalade in the garage, even then I still think it is wrong--but slightly less wrong.

Have you gone full retard? lay off the drugs pls.


The incentives are purely derived from lobbist.

And if you care abour rich and poor inequality, this is pennies.... i repeat PENNIES from the pool. The rich dont get richer from few grands of incentives, ..... Next time you get line at the bank, ask them how they made money from your deposits.

 

[Concac]

I hate the "MPGe" that someone came up with. Gasoline and electricity may both contain energy but they are not equivalent. If you make an assumption that you are starting with a fossil fuel then those two containers of energy are a number of conversions apart to get from one to the other. Electricity is a "higher grade" form of energy than a fossil fuel is.

It makes a whole lot more sense to use kWh / 100 km or km / kWh as those are directly related to what you are paying for in order to "fill up".

The upcoming Chevrolet Bolt with its approximately 60 kWh pack, at 10 cents / off-peak kWh, will cost $6 to "fill up" and you will supposedly be able to do something over 300 km on that. A comparable gasoline engine vehicle (Chevrolet Trax) would probably use about 7 L/100 km = 21 litres to go that distance and cost (today) about $19.

There are places where it could cost more to feed an electric than to drive an equivalent gasoline vehicle, especially if you are recharging during peak demand times.

Totally agree

And the Chevy Bolt is still priced too high. Automakers still like to rob "early adopters" for this "trend" (as they defined it in their marketing).
In reality, reduce carbon consumption is an humanity thing to do.

 

[Owen]

Well that sucks. Maybe I should ask my MPP what's up with that. I mean, if I could get an electric for 8000 off, I would be laughing. These blasted pro nanny-state left-wing liberals are always against motorcycles.

It might have to do with cost as well since the Zero bikes and Brammo's cost about as much as a normal bike. Where an electric car cost substantially more yet can transport more people.

Why would an ***-hat wearing right-wing conservative assume I'm against motorcycles?

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