Online Surveillance Bill

You left out the part where the government reserves the right to order you to pay it anyway, with no legal recourse at their discretion. Whatever the downside, the government has put itself above the law by instituting a special case here only for them which tacks on an extra seven years that no other merchant, institution or bank gets, and the worst part is that after you suffer the seven extra years there is no legal recourse through the courts should the government deign to arbitrarily exercise that power over you.

The fact that they're trying to do this on a massive scale with the internet and this bill now using scare tactics is the central point. You'll have to forgive my less than articulate example - or whatever. I could easily use the G20 example instead - which we all got to see on 60 minutes in high definition.


Maybe you should use the good examples then, because using the student loan program, a program with extremely generous provisons AND a tax credit for interest paid, is a really really stupid example of "government overreach"

Show me the part that says the Govt can order you to pay it anyway with no legal recourse.

There is no way in the world I would support a student loan program without that provision. No ****ing way.
 
Soap box time - sorry.

This bill is a threat and the rights and freedom it subverts are not a joking matter. I have signed a petition against this bill and there's more going on here than most people realize. The conservative party politics scare the hell out of me - and not for my own sake but for the sake of Canada's future.

To wit: The politicians serve a few years, vote themselves a raise and take the summer off and then retire on about 350k tax free per year while the average retiree works until age 65 and beyond and some of them are eating cat food to save money so they can exist which is different to living.

This is indicative of a non-equitable government and the politicians are not interested in representing the proletariat agenda but a large group of them are keenly interested in preserving this lop sided arrangement. The result is they and their families gain real power and long term position and wealth, and more or less become part of a ruling class complete with privileges and riches to match. The general populace will be powerless against them - at least on a legal basis - and let the atrocities of injustice begin.

The government has put itself above the law on so many major issues I've lost count. Having no legal recourse is scary and makes me think of fascism. For example, take something simple like bankruptcy. Consider whom it is supposed to protect and what it should provide, and realize that the government's student loan money will still be owed until you pay it or die - with no recourse for the impoverished student who for whatever reason needed to declare bankruptcy to get a fresh start on life. Well the government doesn't care about all that they just expect to be paid NOW or they will garnish, and the interest on what you owe is compounded. They victimize above a law that was designed to prevent citizens being victimized. Don't even get me started on Revenue Canada... and if you think this doesn't affect you, think again. Every right that they remove politically only serves to make you easier to oppress and squeeze even more money from you.

Social media threatens them; we all saw what happened with social media and the Egyptian revolt. The only thing the lying politicians fear besides your vote is unified social action by a populace that can react in semi-real time, and is tired of being raped by the ruling class. The ability to execute this is based on the freedom of using social media and the internet. If they're allowed to police it without recourse then we lose; it's reminiscent of not teaching the serfs and peasants to read lest they rise up and strike down the local gentry.

/rant off

You need to review your math on the pensions. Amplification, to that level, makes your argument look silly. Even the Prime Minister, the top dog in our government, can't do better than 75% of the number you stated in pension. The top 20 possible earners can't do much better than a third of your number.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2012/01/18/pol-mp-pensions.html

As to the student loan issue it wouldn't have become necessary, to exclude student loans from bankruptcy, if massive numbers of students hadn't been declaring bankruptcy and leaving the burden to the rest of us. Large numbers of doctors, for example, were declaring bankruptcy in Canada and then taking their skills south of the border, where they could use their government subsidized educations to buy 6 bedroom homes. Most rules come into force for a reason. That reason might be good or bad, but it's still a reason. Blame those who came before you.

As to your "ruling class" comments in Canada we have the option of dumping our 'leaders.' That we choose not to is more an indictment of us, than it is of them. There are no 'serfs and gentry'; there are those who rule at our pleasure. If fascism exists here then it is "the tyranny of the masses", not that of any sort of 'ruling class.'
 
Maybe you should use the good examples then, because using the student loan program, a program with extremely generous provisons AND a tax credit for interest paid, is a really really stupid example of "government overreach"

Show me the part that says the Govt can order you to pay it anyway with no legal recourse.

There is no way in the world I would support a student loan program without that provision. No ****ing way.

As requested, excerpt from http://student-loan-bankruptcy.ca/:

In addition, even if a student loan is more than seven years old, it is possible for the government to oppose the former student’s discharge and request that the bankrupt repay some or all of their student loan.
You read that sentence correctly: even if your student loan was more than seven years old when you went bankrupt, the government could object, and you could still end up being required to pay some or all of it back.
 
Social media threatens them; we all saw what happened with social media and the Egyptian revolt. The only thing the lying politicians fear besides your vote is unified social action by a populace that can react in semi-real time, and is tired of being raped by the ruling class. The ability to execute this is based on the freedom of using social media and the internet. If they're allowed to police it without recourse then we lose

THIS is the crux of the case... They (and I am speaking about gvmt, leo and large corporate entities) are scared ******** of the internet. Almost all actions lately are trying to "gain control" of this medium (like they have with traditional media).

Heres to hoping they are too late to the game. Donate to the folks trying to fight this crap here in Canada. http://openmedia.ca/

For Bill C11
http://openmedia.ca/lockdown
 
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You need to review your math on the pensions. Amplification, to that level, makes your argument look silly. Even the Prime Minister, the top dog in our government, can't do better than 75% of the number you stated in pension. The top 20 possible earners can't do much better than a third of your number.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2012/01/18/pol-mp-pensions.html

You're right - thank you for pointing that out. My numbers are a bit skewed because I was doing it from memory and I'm old and a bit forgetful, and I didn't go looking it up at 1 AM but I knew they were high to the point of being ludicrous, and I thought I remembered that number. I was wrong but not wrong on the concept and remember that these numbers are tax free (I believe) so in effect they're much higher than they seem, unless I'm remembering that wrong too but either way the politicians and pensions are characterized by the writer in your article as 'having their snouts in the trough'. That part is right.

As to the student loan issue it wouldn't have become necessary, to exclude student loans from bankruptcy, if massive numbers of students hadn't been declaring bankruptcy and leaving the burden to the rest of us. Large numbers of doctors, for example, were declaring bankruptcy in Canada and then taking their skills south of the border, where they could use their government subsidized educations to buy 6 bedroom homes. Most rules come into force for a reason. That reason might be good or bad, but it's still a reason. Blame those who came before you.

I am aware of why they did it. I was in contact with a recruiter who specialized in the brain drain phenomena that Jean Chretien said didn't exist at the time. I'm not happy about it either and paid well over 50k in income taxes alone last year. In addition to the horrible transgressions by the students to which you refer the local vocational colleges and technical colleges started offering courses for huge amounts of tuition that were lead by ex-data entry clerks in some cases. Their bursary department was right there to help the 18 year old high school drop outs with the complex paperwork to incur the debt, and the Ontario Ministry of Colleges was right there to offer an accredited diploma too. That still goes on today - a college that charges 10k for a 1 year course to provide a Linux certificate that costs $300 to acquire on your own online; and I'm sure of these numbers.

The point here is that instead of fixing the broken system by re-engineering the solution to achieve the original intent, they threw a half hearted band-aid at it which is still costing us to this day, still going on to this day and all that was achieved is a further circumvention of our rights and freedoms. All I'm advocating is that politicians use some of the money they squander, like the $700,000+ spent on the G20 party to hire people with the skills to come up with better designs in the first place to scratch itches before they approve a broken system, and then create another broken system to try to fix it, all the while willing to play the curtail your freedoms because we're above the law card at the drop of a hat, to make 'anything' work.

As to your "ruling class" comments in Canada we have the option of dumping our 'leaders.' That we choose not to is more an indictment of us, than it is of them. There are no 'serfs and gentry'; there are those who rule at our pleasure. If fascism exists here then it is "the tyranny of the masses", not that of any sort of 'ruling class.'

I can't believe the conservatives gained a majority either. But about circumventing the courts and denying freedoms to solve issues, some things are not so easily re-acquired. Freedoms that were gained and protected which now are so easily discarded for various reasons might be a hard habit to break down the road if the government gets used to this heavy handed liberty. Many times they have promised something the people wanted as a central platform only to discard it in the end. They were still in power and there wasn't much we can do about it. Farmers encircle Queens Park with tractors and combines, truckers congest highways in protest but the amount of change that is affected is negligible. The governments of Canada and the US have destroyed the entire manufacturing industry in north america so to say they have been the visionarys of our day would be incorrect too. It's up to us to police them and not the other way around but we have to step up and expend energy to do this.

The internet bill is wrong; it tries to fix an issue with another broken solution and a major circumvention of our freedom. That's the real point here and sorry if my inept post took us off point but I was trying to convey something important that I believe in - and still do.
 
As requested, excerpt from http://student-loan-bankruptcy.ca/:

In addition, even if a student loan is more than seven years old, it is possible for the government to oppose the former student’s discharge and request that the bankrupt repay some or all of their student loan.
You read that sentence correctly: even if your student loan was more than seven years old when you went bankrupt, the government could object, and you could still end up being required to pay some or all of it back.

Lol read the Act and understand what that actually is.

Opposing any bankruptcy happens in court. How is that at all "without legal recourse"?

PS. I said show me the law, not some crap anyone can find by typing it in google.
 
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You're right - thank you for pointing that out. My numbers are a bit skewed because I was doing it from memory and I'm old and a bit forgetful, and I didn't go looking it up at 1 AM but I knew they were high to the point of being ludicrous, and I thought I remembered that number. I was wrong but not wrong on the concept and remember that these numbers are tax free (I believe) so in effect they're much higher than they seem, unless I'm remembering that wrong too but either way the politicians and pensions are characterized by the writer in your article as 'having their snouts in the trough'. That part is right.

It talks about them having their snouts in the trough because they don't contribute reasonable amounts to their retirement funds, not because their pensions are unreasonable. Given what most of them could be making in the private sector, the amounts of money that they're dealing with, and the responsibility involved, I would say that the actual amounts might be a tad low.


I am aware of why they did it. I was in contact with a recruiter who specialized in the brain drain phenomena that Jean Chretien said didn't exist at the time. I'm not happy about it either and paid well over 50k in income taxes alone last year. In addition to the horrible transgressions by the students to which you refer the local vocational colleges and technical colleges started offering courses for huge amounts of tuition that were lead by ex-data entry clerks in some cases. Their bursary department was right there to help the 18 year old high school drop outs with the complex paperwork to incur the debt, and the Ontario Ministry of Colleges was right there to offer an accredited diploma too. That still goes on today - a college that charges 10k for a 1 year course to provide a Linux certificate that costs $300 to acquire on your own online; and I'm sure of these numbers.

The point here is that instead of fixing the broken system by re-engineering the solution to achieve the original intent, they threw a half hearted band-aid at it which is still costing us to this day, still going on to this day and all that was achieved is a further circumvention of our rights and freedoms. All I'm advocating is that politicians use some of the money they squander, like the $700,000+ spent on the G20 party to hire people with the skills to come up with better designs in the first place to scratch itches before they approve a broken system, and then create another broken system to try to fix it, all the while willing to play the curtail your freedoms because we're above the law card at the drop of a hat, to make 'anything' work.

You're talking about CE courses, not regular curriculum. CE is always more expensive. When it comes to regular curriculum something between 60 and 75%, of real costs, are covered by the government. That means the rest of us.

The problem became serious enough, to require a radical solution. It also, as OpenGambit states, not a blanket and irrevocable situation.

You won't find me arguing that government doesn't squander money. Three recent incidents involving 3 different levels of government, come immediately to mind; $1B on G20, $1B on eHealth, a projected $500K on Gary Webster's severance. Those screw-ups don't imply that the system is broken, elsewhere.

I can't believe the conservatives gained a majority either. But about circumventing the courts and denying freedoms to solve issues, some things are not so easily re-acquired. Freedoms that were gained and protected which now are so easily discarded for various reasons might be a hard habit to break down the road if the government gets used to this heavy handed liberty. Many times they have promised something the people wanted as a central platform only to discard it in the end. They were still in power and there wasn't much we can do about it. Farmers encircle Queens Park with tractors and combines, truckers congest highways in protest but the amount of change that is affected is negligible. The governments of Canada and the US have destroyed the entire manufacturing industry in north america so to say they have been the visionarys of our day would be incorrect too. It's up to us to police them and not the other way around but we have to step up and expend energy to do this.

The internet bill is wrong; it tries to fix an issue with another broken solution and a major circumvention of our freedom. That's the real point here and sorry if my inept post took us off point but I was trying to convey something important that I believe in - and still do.

I would argue that industry, in North America, is largely responsible for its own downfall. As are we, with our constant cries of, "More! CHEAPER!!"

Any time that you see some bill with a name that screams, "THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!" you know it's probably a bad thing. This bill is no different. Fortunately we still have the courts, standing between us and the legislators.
 
It talks about them having their snouts in the trough because they don't contribute reasonable amounts to their retirement funds, not because their pensions are unreasonable. Given what most of them could be making in the private sector, the amounts of money that they're dealing with, and the responsibility involved, I would say that the actual amounts might be a tad low.

I believe that one of the first things justice sopinka did when he went to the supreme court, was complain about the salary ( he was appointed directly from a bay street firm, unlike many other judges)

Definately one of the best supreme court justices ever tho.
 
I believe that one of the first things justice sopinka did when he went to the supreme court, was complain about the salary ( he was appointed directly from a bay street firm, unlike many other judges)

Definately one of the best supreme court justices ever tho.

If you pay people chump change, can you really complain about getting chumps? Fortunately, at least occasionally, we get people who are actually civic minded.
 
You mean after I make my fortune I should go back into the public sector to introduce legislation that makes it easier to expand my wealth?

Romney 2012! :rolleyes:


really though its very common for people to spend time in the private sector, go to the public sector for a while and return to the private sector. For those people, the "pension" you get from being in the commons is pretty much peanuts.

I can't speak for that bartender girl from the NDP in quebec tho.... vegas girl...
 
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You mean after I make my fortune I should go back into the public sector to introduce legislation that makes it easier to expand my wealth?

Romney 2012! :rolleyes:


really though its very common for people to spend time in the private sector, go to the public sector for a while and return to the private sector. For those people, the "pension" you get from being in the commons is pretty much peanuts.

I can't speak for that bartender girl from the NDP in quebec tho.... vegas girl...

Hey, I'd have no issue with paying every MP $500K/yr and the PM $1M/yr, as long as they were held to a performance standard. Given the Federal budget, that would be chump change too, but maybe then we'd get people who wanted to cut the overall spending. Those salaries would be worth it, if they generated some efficiency.
 
It talks about them having their snouts in the trough because they don't contribute reasonable amounts to their retirement funds, not because their pensions are unreasonable. Given what most of them could be making in the private sector, the amounts of money that they're dealing with, and the responsibility involved, I would say that the actual amounts might be a tad low.

The responsibility involved and what it takes to get elected - the gamble of it all - can warrant some leeway in their pension but it's characterized as platinum plated for a reason in that article. What they make in the private sector in our capitalistic society is up to them; they need to capitalize on their time as a member of parliament by writing their memoires, etc. That doesn't affect their pension amounts or them retiring after six years of service at those rates while the rest of us scratch and claw for forty odd years for less in my view.

You're talking about CE courses, not regular curriculum. CE is always more expensive. When it comes to regular curriculum something between 60 and 75%, of real costs, are covered by the government. That means the rest of us.

The problem became serious enough, to require a radical solution. It also, as OpenGambit states, not a blanket and irrevocable situation.

You won't find me arguing that government doesn't squander money. Three recent incidents involving 3 different levels of government, come immediately to mind; $1B on G20, $1B on eHealth, a projected $500K on Gary Webster's severance. Those screw-ups don't imply that the system is broken, elsewhere.

I agree with them squandering to the point where they should test out those new prisons they're building personally. My point is they half-assed a solution to a real problem and then half assed a solution to the subsequent problem the original solution created, sprinkled it in special consideration/freedom circumvention and the problem still exists in various forms today. I would think the minister of education would concern himself and his budget with real problems and solutions rather than policing teachers, but we're heading off a slippery slope again.

I would argue that industry, in North America, is largely responsible for its own downfall. As are we, with our constant cries of, "More! CHEAPER!!"

Any time that you see some bill with a name that screams, "THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!" you know it's probably a bad thing. This bill is no different. Fortunately we still have the courts, standing between us and the legislators.

Yes on the children siren song and not really on the our fault totally - we rely and some of us foolishly trust our governing body to look after our sovereign affairs on the world stage and in the world markets. Again both the US and Canada governments jumped on the NAFTA bandwagon which is understandable to a degree and makes a certain amount of sense given our two cultures and proximity and quality of life.

When they removed the tariffs that protected our manufacturing industries and resources and trade they put us on a level trade playing field with countries of the world outside the G20/G8 club; countries that have child labour and routinely commit acts against human rights and by so doing they lowered (albeit temporarily) our standard of living. If a group of people will work for an amount of rice to make sneakers then their costs to manufacture will be lower. In order to compete in an apples to apples theatre we need to work for rice too.

Obviously we can evolve to compete in other areas - we don't have to make sneakers - but in the interim we have some serious issues to resolve in the face of the 'China Rising' era, and a government that has been languishing in the face of a student funding issue for decades, at the wheel, doesn't inspire my trust - especially as it concerns the freedom/policing of the internet by the said same.

Well - now we're completely off track and forums aren't a great place for a Tim Hortons discussion about political views so I'm going to back away from this thread. Maybe while we're out riding we can have a coffee and continue this if you're still interested. Good chat.

:cool:
 
Vic Toews responded to me, here is his response below, I don't have time to go through it all right now to dissect it line for line but I responded that some one who cheated on his wife and then offered to have nothing to do with the child begat from that tryst was hardly a model of morality and had zero credibility with me. His assurances that abuse could not happen fail because we already have abuses by our current government.

Thank you for contacting my office regarding Bill C-30, the Protecting Children from Internet Predators Act.

Canada's laws currently do not adequately protect Canadians from online exploitation and we think there is widespread agreement that this is a problem.

We want to update our laws while striking the right balance between combating crime and protecting privacy.

Let me be very clear: the police will not be able to read emails or view web activity unless they obtain a warrant issued by a judge and we have constructed safeguards to protect the privacy of Canadians, including audits by privacy commissioners.

What's needed most is an open discussion about how to better protect Canadians from online crime. We will therefore send this legislation directly to Parliamentary Committee for a full examination of the best ways to protect Canadians while respecting their privacy.

For your information, I have included some myths and facts below regarding Bill C-30 in its current state.

Sincerely,

Vic Toews
Member of Parliament for Provencher


Myth: Lawful Access legislation infringes on the privacy of Canadians.

Fact: Our Government puts a high priority on protecting the privacy of law-abiding Canadians. Current practices of accessing the actual content of communications with a legal authorization will not change.

Myth: Having access to basic subscriber information means that authorities can monitor personal communications and activities.

Fact: This has nothing to do with monitoring emails or web browsing. Basic subscriber information would be limited to a customer’s name, address, telephone number, email address, Internet Protocol (IP) address, and the name of the telecommunications service provider. It absolutely does not include the content of emails, phones calls or online activities.

Myth: This legislation does not benefit average Canadians and only gives authorities more power.

Fact: As a result of technological innovations, criminals and terrorists have found ways to hide their illegal activities. This legislation will keep Canadians safer by putting police on the same footing as those who seek to harm us.

Myth: Basic subscriber information is way beyond “phone book information”.

Fact: The basic subscriber information described in the proposed legislation is the modern day equivalent of information that is in the phone book. Individuals frequently freely share this information online and in many cases it is searchable and quite public.

Myth: Police and telecommunications service providers will now be required to maintain databases with information collected on Canadians.

Fact: This proposed legislation will not require either police or telecommunications service providers to create databases with information collected on Canadians.

Myth: “Warrantless access” to customer information will give police and government unregulated access to our personal information.

Fact: Federal legislation already allows telecommunications service providers to voluntarily release basic subscriber information to authorities without a warrant. This Bill acts as a counterbalance by adding a number of checks and balances which do not exist today, and clearly lists which basic subscriber identifiers authorities can access.
 
What a load of crap

Myth: Lawful Access legislation infringes on the privacy of Canadians.

Fact: Our Government puts a high priority on protecting the privacy of law-abiding Canadians. Current practices of accessing the actual content of communications with a legal authorization will not change. - Yes but pratices of of obtaining basic personal information will, and that is an infringment of privacy.

Myth: Having access to basic subscriber information means that authorities can monitor personal communications and activities.

Fact: This has nothing to do with monitoring emails or web browsing. Basic subscriber information would be limited to a customer’s name, address, telephone number, email address, Internet Protocol (IP) address, and the name of the telecommunications service provider. It absolutely does not include the content of emails, phones calls or online activities. There is still no reason why you can get this information without a warrant.

Myth: This legislation does not benefit average Canadians and only gives authorities more power.

Fact: As a result of technological innovations, criminals and terrorists have found ways to hide their illegal activities. This legislation will keep Canadians safer by putting police on the same footing as those who seek to harm us. (by giving them more power, he just admitted it).

Myth: Basic subscriber information is way beyond “phone book information”.

Fact: The basic subscriber information described in the proposed legislation is the modern day equivalent of information that is in the phone book. Individuals frequently freely share this information online and in many cases it is searchable and quite public. (he also just admited that its more than phone book information by calling it the "modern equalivant", and the fact that I choose to share it with someone else doesn't mean I chose to share it with the state... IF its also so searchable and public, there would be no need for legisation giving you the power to ask for it.)

Myth: Police and telecommunications service providers will now be required to maintain databases with information collected on Canadians.

Fact: This proposed legislation will not require either police or telecommunications service providers to create databases with information collected on Canadians. (but doesn't prohibit them from doing so, who actually thinks the police WON"T make a database?)

Myth: “Warrantless access” to customer information will give police and government unregulated access to our personal information.

Fact: Federal legislation already allows telecommunications service providers to voluntarily release basic subscriber information to authorities without a warrant. This Bill acts as a counterbalance by adding a number of checks and balances which do not exist today, and clearly lists which basic subscriber identifiers authorities can access. (what a load of ********, you turned "voluntary disclosure" into mandatory disclosure then tried to spin it as including more checks and balances? )
 
poor vic if he believes the BS rhetoric he is spouting he is far too simple to hold the job he has and if he is just full of **** (most likely) that should preclude from the job as well
 
considering that vic was cheating on his wife (he is against gay marriage because it would threaten the sanctity of marriage) and had a child with the woman he was cheating with and then to try to save his marriage that he had not really felt that was important to honour his vows he offered to disown that child he begat with another woman, hardly a man that is a bastion of morality or responsibility. he's not a man, he's a weasel.
 
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considering that vic was cheating on his wife (he is against gay marriage because it would threaten the sanctity of marriage) and had a child with the woman he was cheating with and then to try to save his marriage that he had not really felt that was important to honour his vows he offered to disown that child he begat with another woman, hardly a man that is a bastion of morality or responsibility. he's not a man, he's a weasel.

Why is it so often the 'conservative politicians', who 'support family values', who step out?
 
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