Nothing changes...

[TK4]

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From 2011- DEMAND CHANGE...

CBC NEWS - Toronto
Ontario drivers pay significantly more for auto insurance than other Canadians, in part because the average cost of accident injury claims is five times higher than in other provinces, auditor general Jim McCarter reported Monday.
Auto insurance fraud cost the industry about $1.3 billion a year in Ontario, but the province "does not have significant measures in place to combat fraud," McCarter warned in his annual report.
The number of people killed or injured in auto accidents in Ontario fell 25 per cent in a decade, but the government still guarantees insurers a "reasonable rate of return" of 12 per cent. That figure was last adjusted in 1996, when the long-term bond rate it was based on was 10 per cent.
"The long-term bond rate now is about two or three per cent and they're still being allowed to earn 12 per cent," McCarter told reporters. "We think that rate should be reviewed, but on the other hand, because of the very high claim costs in Ontario, they're paying out a lot more claims."
Finance Minister Dwight Duncan said the Ontario government would look at McCarter's recommendation to lower the 12 per cent guaranteed rate of return for insurers, but made no promises to cut the rate.
From 2005 to 2010, the total cost of injury claims rose 150 per cent, even though the number of injury claims in the same period increased only 30 per cent. The number of personal injury claims in 2009 was 20 per cent higher than the number of people who reported having been injured in an automobile accident that year.
"The commission that oversees the auto insurance sector does not know whether insurers are handling claims judiciously and paying out the proper amounts, and it needs better information on the impact of fraud on claim costs," McCarter wrote.
New Democrats said the province must do a better job over overseeing auto insurance providers.
"We've been saying for some time that insurance rates are over the top, unaffordable," said NDP Leader Andrea Horwath. "This report simply reinforces the fact that the auto insurance industry needs to be overhauled."

 

[sburns]

How??? Is anybody listening?

 

[TK4]

How??? Is anybody listening?

Apparently not.

 

[sburns]

Apparently not.

Exactly.

This might not be new information, but could be worth mentioning.

I had a interesting conversation about insurance the other day with someone new I met. They had worked for a insurance company in the claims department. He was telling me the insurance companies offer introduction rates for new clients, to get them onboard. Then slowly start to raise rates. Like my new insurance company did last year, stating it was because of the government Financial Services Commission of Ontario. When I told him that, he said that was a excuse they use to convince clients for increases. Further said that you should only stay with an insurance company for 3 years because they will automatically just raise your rates. Also stated that CAA has the best rates, which I also have found to be true. I dunno what to believe, other then there is no clarity to this situation.

Anyhow not much new information, and insurance does seem to be manipulated and we all are getting fuked.

 

[Priller]

Aside from the obvious rip-offs and strangely high rates, my biggest problem with the vehicle insurance system in Ontario is a lack of transparency in how they set their rates. How much of a difference does the type of bike actually make to my rate? Why isn't there insurance classifications for all bikes like they have in the UK so consumers can make informed decisions? Why are they so obsessed with continuous insurance, but don't care about continuous driving? Does neighbourhood affect rates as much as some say? If so, what data is being used to make that call? Why is it so difficult to compare rates without spending 20 minutes getting a quote from a whole pile of companies? Why can't we exclude other riders from our insurance, allowing multiple bikes to be insured for less? Why can't you just insure an off-road bike for fire and theft? Why is it so difficult to insure a bike for its actual value in advance and pay accordingly, rather than being at the mercy of whatever value they concoct when it's convenient for them?

I'm sure there are answers to these questions, but it's very hard to find them explained clearly from an authoritative source.

When consumers are left to puzzle out the reasons for their rates, inevitably one starts to question the good faith of the other party. I'm sure there are good reasons for some of the costs, but as it stands, the impression is left that they're no better than robber barons, exploiting a captive market for excessive profits. If medical claims are such a problem, specific to Ontario, why has nobody been able to solve that? Or is it just a red herring, designed to distract from the real problem?

 

[Mad Mike]

Aside from the obvious rip-offs and strangely high rates, my biggest problem with the vehicle insurance system in Ontario is a lack of transparency in how they set their rates. How much of a difference does the type of bike actually make to my rate? Why isn't there insurance classifications for all bikes like they have in the UK so consumers can make informed decisions? Why are they so obsessed with continuous insurance, but don't care about continuous driving? Does neighbourhood affect rates as much as some say? If so, what data is being used to make that call? Why is it so difficult to compare rates without spending 20 minutes getting a quote from a whole pile of companies? Why can't we exclude other riders from our insurance, allowing multiple bikes to be insured for less? Why can't you just insure an off-road bike for fire and theft? Why is it so difficult to insure a bike for its actual value in advance and pay accordingly, rather than being at the mercy of whatever value they concoct when it's convenient for them?

I'm sure there are answers to these questions, but it's very hard to find them explained clearly from an authoritative source.

When consumers are left to puzzle out the reasons for their rates, inevitably one starts to question the good faith of the other party. I'm sure there are good reasons for some of the costs, but as it stands, the impression is left that they're no better than robber barons, exploiting a captive market for excessive profits. If medical claims are such a problem, specific to Ontario, why has nobody been able to solve that? Or is it just a red herring, designed to distract from the real problem?

All good points. The main challenge is that insurance is run as a legal cartel. There are 3 main players; insurers, Ont govt (regulator) and the insurers lobby IBC. Consumers are not represented, they have no seat at the table.

Then you have another set of groups that profit by exploiting the system. Lawyers, towing, body shops, and an assortment of therapists all lobby to keep things from changing, and many of those groups participate in or encourage fraud.

The whole system needs changes on a massive scale.

 

[NFP Moto]

Aside from the obvious rip-offs and strangely high rates, my biggest problem with the vehicle insurance system in Ontario is a lack of transparency in how they set their rates. How much of a difference does the type of bike actually make to my rate? Why isn't there insurance classifications for all bikes like they have in the UK so consumers can make informed decisions? Why are they so obsessed with continuous insurance, but don't care about continuous driving? Does neighbourhood affect rates as much as some say? If so, what data is being used to make that call? Why is it so difficult to compare rates without spending 20 minutes getting a quote from a whole pile of companies? Why can't we exclude other riders from our insurance, allowing multiple bikes to be insured for less? Why can't you just insure an off-road bike for fire and theft? Why is it so difficult to insure a bike for its actual value in advance and pay accordingly, rather than being at the mercy of whatever value they concoct when it's convenient for them?

I'm sure there are answers to these questions, but it's very hard to find them explained clearly from an authoritative source.

When consumers are left to puzzle out the reasons for their rates, inevitably one starts to question the good faith of the other party. I'm sure there are good reasons for some of the costs, but as it stands, the impression is left that they're no better than robber barons, exploiting a captive market for excessive profits. If medical claims are such a problem, specific to Ontario, why has nobody been able to solve that? Or is it just a red herring, designed to distract from the real problem?

So much to say about this but here is an attempt to weigh in on this problem. Personally I lobby on behalf of the RIDER/client for better rates, re-classification for certain models, etc. I am a rider first and this stuff is really personal to me. I have to pay insurance as well and have 4 bikes in my garage. If you have further questions, email us at: moto@nfp.com

Some key info to address your questions:
1. Every insurance company has their own crew of bean counters and their own "risk appetite". Again remember that most insurance company "decision makers" have never even been within 10 ft of an actual motorcycle. This is why some companies will insure a 180 hp KTM SuperDuke 1290R without blinking but wont insure a Honda CBRR600RR under any circumstances. They mostly look at accident and claims statistics (theft frequency less of a factor) so yes WHERE you live makes a difference on the rate. What you ride makes a difference. Your age and riding experience definitely makes a difference.

2. You CAN exclude riders on a policy, super easy.

3. Decent moto insurance companies do offer a multi-bike discount. Bigger discounts when bundled with home and auto (which the insurance companies clearly prefer over bikes)

4. The $$ value of a motorcycle is only a small factor on the overall rate. It is the PERSON that is expensive to insure (accident benefits, rehab, medical attendant care, legal costs, etc). Even a $40K Harley Davidson is peanuts compared to the total rate.

5. This is why you should deal with a BROKER (vs insurance company) as we compare the rates against multiple insurance companies rather than you having to make 10 phone calls.

 

[Mad Mike]

So much to say about this but here is an attempt to weigh in on this problem. Personally I lobby on behalf of the RIDER/client for better rates, re-classification for certain models, etc. I am a rider first and this stuff is really personal to me. I have to pay insurance as well and have 4 bikes in my garage. If you have further questions, email us at: moto@nfp.com

Some key info to address your questions:
1. Every insurance company has their own crew of bean counters and their own "risk appetite". Again remember that most insurance company "decision makers" have never even been within 10 ft of an actual motorcycle. This is why some companies will insure a 180 hp KTM SuperDuke 1290R without blinking but wont insure a Honda CBRR600RR under any circumstances. They mostly look at accident and claims statistics (theft frequency less of a factor) so yes WHERE you live makes a difference on the rate. What you ride makes a difference. Your age and riding experience definitely makes a difference.

2. You CAN exclude riders on a policy, super easy.

3. Decent moto insurance companies do offer a multi-bike discount. Bigger discounts when bundled with home and auto (which the insurance companies clearly prefer over bikes)

4. The $$ value of a motorcycle is only a small factor on the overall rate. It is the PERSON that is expensive to insure (accident benefits, rehab, medical attendant care, legal costs, etc). Even a $40K Harley Davidson is peanuts compared to the total rate.

5. This is why you should deal with a BROKER (vs insurance company) as we compare the rates against multiple insurance companies rather than you having to make 10 phone calls.

I agree brokers can save money, but that’s not always the case.

I switched over H&A to CAA recently, house and 4 cars. 5 brothers could not match. On the other hand, a buddy with a DUI used a broker who got his rates down from $700 to $300/mo. Worked fit him.

Pricing isn’t a broker/direct insurer issue, that a shopping exercise. The challenge in Ontario is a system that is unnecessarily expensive and in control by the three stakeholders who profit, with no control from the stakeholder who pays

 

[Priller]

So much to say about this but here is an attempt to weigh in on this problem. Personally I lobby on behalf of the RIDER/client for better rates, re-classification for certain models, etc. I am a rider first and this stuff is really personal to me. I have to pay insurance as well and have 4 bikes in my garage. If you have further questions, email us at: moto@nfp.com

Some key info to address your questions:
1. Every insurance company has their own crew of bean counters and their own "risk appetite". Again remember that most insurance company "decision makers" have never even been within 10 ft of an actual motorcycle. This is why some companies will insure a 180 hp KTM SuperDuke 1290R without blinking but wont insure a Honda CBRR600RR under any circumstances. They mostly look at accident and claims statistics (theft frequency less of a factor) so yes WHERE you live makes a difference on the rate. What you ride makes a difference. Your age and riding experience definitely makes a difference.

2. You CAN exclude riders on a policy, super easy.

3. Decent moto insurance companies do offer a multi-bike discount. Bigger discounts when bundled with home and auto (which the insurance companies clearly prefer over bikes)

4. The $$ value of a motorcycle is only a small factor on the overall rate. It is the PERSON that is expensive to insure (accident benefits, rehab, medical attendant care, legal costs, etc). Even a $40K Harley Davidson is peanuts compared to the total rate.

5. This is why you should deal with a BROKER (vs insurance company) as we compare the rates against multiple insurance companies rather than you having to make 10 phone calls.

Fair enough, and thanks for the thoughtful reply. I do have some follow up questions, though:

1. Why can't insurers release info relating to how they classify models? This would help buyers make informed decisions, rather than getting a nasty surprise when quoting a new buy, or having to ask for 10 quotes for each potential model they might buy?

2. Does excluding riders offer any sort of discount? It's a meaningless option if not. I was thinking more in terms of insuring multiple bikes under one rider, yet paying overlap coverage for injury/liability on each one. Mileage would be a more pertinent factor in setting rates in that circumstance, as least so it seems to me.

3. See above. And if a discount is 3% or whatever, it's not really meaningful under the circumstances.

4. Assuming this to be true, why is it so difficult to get coverage at declared value in Ontario? It's standard practice in BC for 3rd party coverage, but only available on new bikes here. The deciding factor in me choosing my broker here was that they considered my bike to have been continuously insured since new, and thus eligible for replacement value for a new equivalent, not used. I would be happy to pay whatever small premium to simply declare the value of what I want covered, rather than be told that the low end used value is what the payout would be after the fact. Unfortunately, nobody seems to offer the option.

5. I did, and while it was helpful and that's who I bought my coverage from, many insurers don't use brokers, forcing consumers to make a number of calls. Different brokers gave me different rates and options, too.

To add to the above, I have a few more questions if you are willing to help further:

- Can I get theft and fire coverage for a track-only bike anywhere?
- Is it possible to get any sort of trackday coverage like they offer in Europe, either on bike, rider, or both? (I covered this in another thread and I'm not holding my breath, but worth asking, anyway)
- What difference does continuous insurance actually make on rates vs. years of riding? This one is personal for me because I lived in BC for the last number of years, and they offer coverage daily, monthly, half-yearly and annually. As I typically went with 6 months of coverage plus daily for spring and fall sunny days, I got knocked down for non-continuous coverage despite riding just as much in a year.

Thanks in advance for any help or clarification you can offer...

 

[Mad Mike]

Fair enough, and thanks for the thoughtful reply. I do have some follow up questions, though:

1. Why can't insurers release info relating to how they classify models? This would help buyers make informed decisions, rather than getting a nasty surprise when quoting a new buy, or having to ask for 10 quotes for each potential model they might buy?

2. Does excluding riders offer any sort of discount? It's a meaningless option if not. I was thinking more in terms of insuring multiple bikes under one rider, yet paying overlap coverage for injury/liability on each one. Mileage would be a more pertinent factor in setting rates in that circumstance, as least so it seems to me.

3. See above. And if a discount is 3% or whatever, it's not really meaningful under the circumstances.

4. Assuming this to be true, why is it so difficult to get coverage at declared value in Ontario? It's standard practice in BC for 3rd party coverage, but only available on new bikes here. The deciding factor in me choosing my broker here was that they considered my bike to have been continuously insured since new, and thus eligible for replacement value for a new equivalent, not used. I would be happy to pay whatever small premium to simply declare the value of what I want covered, rather than be told that the low end used value is what the payout would be after the fact. Unfortunately, nobody seems to offer the option.

5. I did, and while it was helpful and that's who I bought my coverage from, many insurers don't use brokers, forcing consumers to make a number of calls. Different brokers gave me different rates and options, too.

To add to the above, I have a few more questions if you are willing to help further:

- Can I get theft and fire coverage for a track-only bike anywhere?
- Is it possible to get any sort of trackday coverage like they offer in Europe, either on bike, rider, or both? (I covered this in another thread and I'm not holding my breath, but worth asking, anyway)
- What difference does continuous insurance actually make on rates vs. years of riding? This one is personal for me because I lived in BC for the last number of years, and they offer coverage daily, monthly, half-yearly and annually. As I typically went with 6 months of coverage plus daily for spring and fall sunny days, I got knocked down for non-continuous coverage despite riding just as much in a year.

Thanks in advance for any help or clarification you can offer...

I can answer some of these, I managed to sit with execs at 3 sizable insurers last year and asked some of these questions.

1. They do this for cars, not for bikes. IBC compiles this info, they don’t track bikes. Insurers decide themselves on bikes usually based on competitive intelligence, not on actuarial data.

2. They can do a lot, they can do the things you ask. The usual response is “were regulated, that’s not in something we are able to sell”. What the should say to be truthful is “we are regulated, to sell based on mileage we file and seek approval. We don’t see a business benefit, quit holding your breath”. Part of the IBC mandate is to discourage ins co from breaking the mold and restrict new entrants who might try. It a way to keep competition friendly and profitible.

4. See answer to #2

 

[NFP Moto]

Fair enough, and thanks for the thoughtful reply. I do have some follow up questions, though:

1. Why can't insurers release info relating to how they classify models? This would help buyers make informed decisions, rather than getting a nasty surprise when quoting a new buy, or having to ask for 10 quotes for each potential model they might buy?

2. Does excluding riders offer any sort of discount? It's a meaningless option if not. I was thinking more in terms of insuring multiple bikes under one rider, yet paying overlap coverage for injury/liability on each one. Mileage would be a more pertinent factor in setting rates in that circumstance, as least so it seems to me.

3. See above. And if a discount is 3% or whatever, it's not really meaningful under the circumstances.

4. Assuming this to be true, why is it so difficult to get coverage at declared value in Ontario? It's standard practice in BC for 3rd party coverage, but only available on new bikes here. The deciding factor in me choosing my broker here was that they considered my bike to have been continuously insured since new, and thus eligible for replacement value for a new equivalent, not used. I would be happy to pay whatever small premium to simply declare the value of what I want covered, rather than be told that the low end used value is what the payout would be after the fact. Unfortunately, nobody seems to offer the option.

5. I did, and while it was helpful and that's who I bought my coverage from, many insurers don't use brokers, forcing consumers to make a number of calls. Different brokers gave me different rates and options, too.

To add to the above, I have a few more questions if you are willing to help further:

- Can I get theft and fire coverage for a track-only bike anywhere?
- Is it possible to get any sort of trackday coverage like they offer in Europe, either on bike, rider, or both? (I covered this in another thread and I'm not holding my breath, but worth asking, anyway)
- What difference does continuous insurance actually make on rates vs. years of riding? This one is personal for me because I lived in BC for the last number of years, and they offer coverage daily, monthly, half-yearly and annually. As I typically went with 6 months of coverage plus daily for spring and fall sunny days, I got knocked down for non-continuous coverage despite riding just as much in a year.

Thanks in advance for any help or clarification you can offer...

ok cue the long reply.... here goes.

1. There is a person on this forum that says they set rates for an insurance company. You should ask him that question. As a broker I can tell you that all insurance companies are different in size, how they are structured, etc but within the organization there is usually just ONE or two people that handle that aspect. I have met some of these people in person... with very few exceptions none of these people actually RIDE. Likewise the rest of the people at that insurance company wouldn't even know where to begin looking for that list or info.

2. Excluding riders (or drivers) can result in lower rates if the excluded person has issues like a bunch of tickets, accidents, or if we are talking about a teenager, then yes. In most cases however you do not even need to exclude anyone.... if the broker actually knows what they are doing.

3. Different insurance companies have different discounts. Multi-bike discounts range from 5% to 20%. Multi-line bundle discounts (car + home) can range from 15% to 50% depending on the insurance carrier

4. SUPER IMPORTANT - Again the $$ value of the bike is barely an issue and because insurance companies dont know bikes they will list the insured value at whatever you tell them or simply at current blue book value. You may think you are being smart by telling them you only paid $2000 for that 2019 HD Road King but guess what? you only lowered your annual rate by $50 total and if that thing gets stolen or crashed.... they will refer to your statement and base payout on $2000. Never voluntarily undervalue your bike. Insurance companies have a database for stock current $$ value averages so you only discuss the total value if your bike is worth MORE than stock not less.

5. Track day insurance is few and far between but also cheap as it mostly for all the other stuff you have at the track (trailer, gear, helmet, tools, gens, etc). There used to be more coverage available for the bike itself but speaking of insurance FRAUD, any idea why thats really hard to get now? Hmm.... lets see. Trying to be a hero I high side and total my bike in turn 8. Next thing you know that bike mysteriously disappears.... reported stolen from the track. Hmm... no one noticed huh? odd.

6. Continuous insurance is no big deal but having gaps less than 30 days just gets you some EXTRA discounts. Incidentally it never makes sense to cancel your insurance in the winter months unless you have sold the bike. I will post some details on that topic here later on. If you have gaps bigger than a year, 3 years, 10 years etc then it might change your star rating that first year back as you have gotten a bit rusty. Seat time.

 

[Lightcycle]

Ontario drivers pay significantly more for auto insurance than other Canadians

BC: Hold my beer, Ontario.

 

[Priller]

4. SUPER IMPORTANT - Again the $$ value of the bike is barely an issue and because insurance companies dont know bikes they will list the insured value at whatever you tell them or simply at current blue book value. You may think you are being smart by telling them you only paid $2000 for that 2019 HD Road King but guess what? you only lowered your annual rate by $50 total and if that thing gets stolen or crashed.... they will refer to your statement and base payout on $2000. Never voluntarily undervalue your bike. Insurance companies have a database for stock current $$ value averages so you only discuss the total value if your bike is worth MORE than stock not less.

I'm not talking about undervaluing a bike to save a few bucks on my premium. I'm talking about declaring a value for the bike that I'd like to get paid out at in case of a write-off, and paying accordingly. My street bike is a 2018 Aprilia Tuono with a fair bit of money in suspension. Aprilias don't have great depreciation, and are finicky bikes that don't respond well to poor maintenance. Therefore, I want to be able to buy a new Tuono should mine be written off or be stolen, as getting a payout for book value would mean I'd either be taking a chance on something with issues or have to pony up a significant amount myself to get something new. I'd also be taking a bath on replacing all my K-Tech bits. If bike value is such a small part of the overall cost, this shouldn't be a major premium addition for a lot of peace of mind. Forget book values, etc. Just let me say I want to be insured for an $18,000 motorcycle with $3,500 worth of modifications, charge me accordingly, and then we don't have to faff about in case of making a claim. Unless the insurance company is confident their faffing ability is superior to mine, of course, and want to pocket the difference of a smaller payout...

5. Track day insurance is few and far between but also cheap as it mostly for all the other stuff you have at the track (trailer, gear, helmet, tools, gens, etc). There used to be more coverage available for the bike itself but speaking of insurance FRAUD, any idea why thats really hard to get now? Hmm.... lets see. Trying to be a hero I high side and total my bike in turn 8. Next thing you know that bike mysteriously disappears.... reported stolen from the track. Hmm... no one noticed huh? odd.

It's funny, but the only insurance fraud I've heard about (never seen, mind you, just stories) at the track is people putting a crashed bike in a truck and taking it out to a backroad to claim a covered crash there. I see your point, bu

6. Continuous insurance is no big deal but having gaps less than 30 days just gets you some EXTRA discounts. Incidentally it never makes sense to cancel your insurance in the winter months unless you have sold the bike. I will post some details on that topic here later on. If you have gaps bigger than a year, 3 years, 10 years etc then it might change your star rating that first year back as you have gotten a bit rusty. Seat time.

Cancelling over the winter doesn't help here because of the way things are set up, I get it. But my annual insurance cost for my Tuono in Vancouver was $400/yr 3rd party for comprehensive coverage excl. liability, then $140/mo to ICBC over 6 months for $2M liability incl. uninsured motorist coverage. There was zero benefit to insuring for liability etc. through the winter because I wasn't riding, and insurance is offered by use, not prorated over a year. On the contrary, you don't 'cancel' insurance there, you buy it for the time you need instead.

When I was getting quotes, all the questions were about continuous insurance, nobody gave a crap about seat time. When I described the system in BC, every single person I got quotes from was extremely confused, even when I sent over my ICBC insurance history documents. Nobody asked about how long the gaps were, etc., they just asked about continuous insurance. While the intentions may be good, the impression it gives is that insurance companies in Ontario want to discourage cancellation, so will punish riders/drivers with higher rates for doing so.

I should clarify that I genuinely appreciate your taking the time to offer what clarity you can. I know it's a relatively niche market, and insurance is a business that thrives on volume.

 

[Priller]

BC: Hold my beer, Ontario.

I'm paying almost $600/yr more in Ontario for slightly less coverage on my Tuono. No claims, no tickets, riding for almost 20 years with a few gaps and 11 years continuous riding (but not continuous coverage). Similar urban/suburban neighbourhood. Sure, I do have the privilege of being covered to ride in January...

My wife pays marginally less (~$70/yr) on her CR-V (clean license) but will see a higher bump in rates should she get a ticket or make a claim.

Everyone in BC bitches about ICBC because they have been comparing rates to Alberta's artificially low rates. Now that Alberta has allowed bigger increases, their rates are catching up fast.

 

[Lightcycle]

I'm paying almost $600/yr more in Ontario for slightly less coverage on my Tuono. No claims, no tickets, riding for almost 20 years with a few gaps and 11 years continuous riding (but not continuous coverage). Similar urban/suburban neighbourhood. Sure, I do have the privilege of being covered to ride in January...

My wife pays marginally less (~$70/yr) on her CR-V (clean license) but will see a higher bump in rates should she get a ticket or make a claim.

Everyone in BC bitches about ICBC because they have been comparing rates to Alberta's artificially low rates. Now that Alberta has allowed bigger increases, their rates are catching up fast.

Not my experience.

Mine is more in line with this chart from IBC: What Is the Cost of an Average Insurance Plan per Province & Where Is the Cheapest?

The only plus for BC insurance is that you can suspend the coverage and it's not pro-rated like in Ontario.

So although motorcycle liability insurance is about 50% more than what I used to pay in Ontario, I can activate or suspend it for the day, week or month. In my case, it works out to about the same as Ontario.

Comprehensive is year-round.

 

[Priller]

Not my experience.

Mine is more in line with this chart from IBC: What Is the Cost of an Average Insurance Plan per Province & Where Is the Cheapest?

The only plus for BC insurance is that you can suspend the coverage and it's not pro-rated like in Ontario.

So although motorcycle liability insurance is about 50% more than what I used to pay in Ontario, I can activate or suspend it for the day, week or month. In my case, it works out to about the same as Ontario.

Comprehensive is year-round.

I wouldn't exactly call the IBC an impartial source, as they represent private insurers for whom public insurance is anathema. Also, average premium is a blunt tool to measure a complex item. US rates are insanely low, for example, which looks appealing until you see those rates are based on $50,000 coverage. Add the complexities of regional differences (licensing laws, road conditions, weather, population density, population distribution, infrastructure age, etc.) and it's difficult to compare apples to apples. I'd love to know how much of Quebec's rates are subsidised elsewhere, as on paper they should be closest to Ontario for those intangibles.

I think the biggest thing BC and Ontario have in common is a more pervasive culture of claim inflation and fraud. I remember getting quotes in BC to replace the windshield on a company truck, and when they found out it wasn't covered by insurance, the cost dropped by half. We had similar issues with body shops when paying to repair cars that have been damaged during the course of my employers' work. Once it became clear that there wasn't a blank insurance cheque available, numbers dropped precipitously. I know most of the money goes towards health claims, but I can only imagine a similar culture of adding zeroes to costs applies, especially when lawyers are involved.

I'm certainly not claiming ICBC is great. Their driver licensing and training system alone is deeply flawed, letting drivers onto the road who have no business being there. But many people in BC are convinced that private insurance is a panacea, and Ontario is proof that it absolutely isn't. If you don't fix the underlying problems, any system will struggle to be efficient...

 

[NFP Moto]

Yes, all the provinces have different ways of calculating and rating for motorcycles. As this is GTAM I'm describing the way insurance works in ONTARIO. The biggest difference between BC and ONT is the Seasonal Ratings chart which again I can explain in more detail if you email me directly: moto@nfp.com

 

[NFP Moto]

I'm not talking about undervaluing a bike to save a few bucks on my premium. I'm talking about declaring a value for the bike that I'd like to get paid out at in case of a write-off, and paying accordingly. My street bike is a 2018 Aprilia Tuono with a fair bit of money in suspension. Aprilias don't have great depreciation, and are finicky bikes that don't respond well to poor maintenance. Therefore, I want to be able to buy a new Tuono should mine be written off or be stolen, as getting a payout for book value would mean I'd either be taking a chance on something with issues or have to pony up a significant amount myself to get something new. I'd also be taking a bath on replacing all my K-Tech bits. If bike value is such a small part of the overall cost, this shouldn't be a major premium addition for a lot of peace of mind. Forget book values, etc. Just let me say I want to be insured for an $18,000 motorcycle with $3,500 worth of modifications, charge me accordingly, and then we don't have to faff about in case of making a claim. Unless the insurance company is confident their faffing ability is superior to mine, of course, and want to pocket the difference of a smaller payout...


It's funny, but the only insurance fraud I've heard about (never seen, mind you, just stories) at the track is people putting a crashed bike in a truck and taking it out to a backroad to claim a covered crash there. I see your point, bu


Cancelling over the winter doesn't help here because of the way things are set up, I get it. But my annual insurance cost for my Tuono in Vancouver was $400/yr 3rd party for comprehensive coverage excl. liability, then $140/mo to ICBC over 6 months for $2M liability incl. uninsured motorist coverage. There was zero benefit to insuring for liability etc. through the winter because I wasn't riding, and insurance is offered by use, not prorated over a year. On the contrary, you don't 'cancel' insurance there, you buy it for the time you need instead.

When I was getting quotes, all the questions were about continuous insurance, nobody gave a crap about seat time. When I described the system in BC, every single person I got quotes from was extremely confused, even when I sent over my ICBC insurance history documents. Nobody asked about how long the gaps were, etc., they just asked about continuous insurance. While the intentions may be good, the impression it gives is that insurance companies in Ontario want to discourage cancellation, so will punish riders/drivers with higher rates for doing so.

I should clarify that I genuinely appreciate your taking the time to offer what clarity you can. I know it's a relatively niche market, and insurance is a business that thrives on volume.

addressing those two points
4. A broker that actually knows what they are doing would enter the info for that Tuono using the stock Blue Book Value and then enter in the suspension and upgrades in the accessories section. Typically accessories under $2500 don't even need to be factored in, just included as a footnote and the more documentation you have on your end (receipts, photos, work orders, etc) the better in the case of a claims payout. If you have more than $2500 worth of extras, simply mention that to the broker

6. Continuous insurance is directly linked to seat time, but again this is mostly for extra discounts for having 3 years insured in a row, 5 years, 10 years etc. A 5-Star rated rider only needs a full M class license, moto licensed for more than 6 years, and insurance on a bike in the past 12 months. Continuous or "loyalty" discounts are on top of that 5-Star rate. One thing I hear all the time is "I havent had insurance in 15 years but I have been riding my friends bike". Though that may be the case, it will not show up on your insurance history reports until you have the insurance under your own name. As a broker we have access to certain insurance companies that don't care one bit about last time insured or continuous insurance, just how long you have been licensed however those carriers tend to have higher rates overall.

 

[Lyndsay]

Not my experience.

Mine is more in line with this chart from IBC: What Is the Cost of an Average Insurance Plan per Province & Where Is the Cheapest?

The only plus for BC insurance is that you can suspend the coverage and it's not pro-rated like in Ontario.

So although motorcycle liability insurance is about 50% more than what I used to pay in Ontario, I can activate or suspend it for the day, week or month. In my case, it works out to about the same as Ontario.

Comprehensive is year-round.

Just out of curiosity, what does the asterisk beside Ontario allude to?

 

[Priller]

Just out of curiosity, what does the asterisk beside Ontario allude to?

From the website:

*Ontario figure updated February 2020 by Canada Drives to reflect 1.56% average increase.

Other numbers are for 2019 or 2018...

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